Atlee: Gandhi’s role in UK decision to leave India was MINIMAL

Atlee: Gandhi’s role in UK decision to leave India was MINIMAL




“..Apart from revisionist historians, it was none other than Lord Clement Atlee himself, the British Prime Minister responsible for conceding independence to India, who gave a shattering blow to the myth sought to be perpetuated by court historians, that Gandhi and his movement had led the country to freedom. Chief Justice P.B. Chakrabarty of Calcutta High Court, who had also served as the acting Governor of West Bengal in India, disclosed the following in a letter addressed to the publisher of Dr. R.C. Majumdar’s book A History of Bengal. The Chief Justice wrote: ‘ My direct question to him (Atlee) was that since Gandhi’s “Quit India” movement had tapered off quite some time ago and in 1947 no such new compelling situation had arisen that would necessitate a hasty British departure, why did they have to leave.

In his reply Atlee cited several reasons, the principal among them being the erosion of loyalty to the British Crown among the Indian army and navy personnel as a result of the military activities of Netaji [Bose].




Toward the end of our discussion I asked Atlee what was the extent of Gandhi’s influence upon the British decision to quit India. Hearing this question, Atlee’s lips became twisted in a sarcastic smile as he slowly chewed out the word, “m-i-n-i-m-a-l!” ” Subhas Chandra Bose, the Indian National Army, and the War of India’s Liberation – Ranjan Borra, Journal of Historical Review, no. 3, 4 (Winter 1982)






…The Indian Army in India is not obeying the British officers. We have recruited our workers for the war; they have been demobilised after the war. They are required to repair the factories damaged by Hitler’s bombers. Moreover, they want to join their kith and kin after five and a half years of separation. Their kith and kin also want to join them. In these conditions if we have to rule India for a long time, we have to keep a permanent British army for a long time in a vast country of four hundred millions. We have no such army….” Sir Stafford Cripps, intervening in the debate on the motion to grant Indian Indepence in the British House of Commons in 1947 quoted in ‘The Freedom Struggle and the Dravidian Movement’ by P.Ramamurti, Orient Longman, 1987
Nonviolence: Its Histories and Myths
Professor Michael Neumann, Trent University in Ontario, Canada
8 February 2003 in Counter Punch
“…I have neither the moral standing nor the slightest desire to disparage the courage of those who engage in non-violence…. But, non-violence, so often recommended.. has never ‘worked’ in any politically relevant sense of the word, and there is no reason to suppose it ever will. It has never, largely on its own strength, achieved the political objectives of those who employed it… There are supposedly three major examples of successful nonviolence: Gandhi’s independence movement, the US civil rights movement, and the South African campaign against apartheid. None of them performed as advertised. The notion that a people can free itself literally by allowing their captors to walk all over them is historical fantasy…”
Comment by tamilnation.org 1.”…The Indian Army in India is not obeying the British officers. We have recruited our workers for the war; they have been demobilised after the war. They are required to repair the factories damaged by Hitler’s bombers. Moreover, they want to join their kith and kin after five and a half years of separation. Their kith and kin also want to join them. In these conditions if we have to rule India for a long time, we have to keep a permanent British army for a long time in a vast country of four hundred millions. We have no such army….” Sir Stafford Cripps, intervening in the debate on the motion to grant Indian Indepence in the British House of Commons in 1947 quoted in ‘The Freedom Struggle and the Dravidian Movement’ by P.Ramamurti, Orient Longman, 1987
2 “..Apart from revisionist historians, it was none other than Lord Clement Atlee himself, the British Prime Minister responsible for conceding independence to India, who gave a shattering blow to the myth sought to be perpetuated by court historians, that Gandhi and his movement had led the country to freedom. Chief Justice P.B. Chakrabarty of Calcutta High Court, who had also served as the acting Governor of West Bengal in India, disclosed the following in a letter addressed to the publisher of Dr. R.C. Majumdar’s book A History of Bengal. The Chief Justice wrote: ‘ My direct question to him (Atlee) was that since Gandhi’s “Quit India” movement had tapered off quite some time ago and in 1947 no such new compelling situation had arisen that would necessitate a hasty British departure, why did they have to leave? In his reply Atlee cited several reasons, the principal among them being the erosion of loyalty to the British Crown among the Indian army and navy personnel as a result of the military activities of Netaji [Bose]. Toward the end of our discussion I asked Atlee what was the extent of Gandhi’s influence upon the British decision to quit India. Hearing this question, Atlee’s lips became twisted in a sarcastic smile as he slowly chewed out the word, “m-i-n-i-m-a-l!” ” Subhas Chandra Bose, the Indian National Army, and the War of India’s Liberation – Ranjan Borra, Journal of Historical Review, no. 3, 4 (Winter 1982)

Muslim appeasement was an inseparable part of Gandhi’s quack doctrine of Non-violence.

Posted on July 12, 2010 by Santosh Bhatt's Blog

It is now well known that Muslim appeasement was an inseparable part of Gandhi’s quack doctrine of Non-violence. But many do not know why he, while he was in South Africa, adopted, or compelled to adopt this dirty policy in 1908.

At that time the South African government imposed an unjust tax of £ 3 on every Indian living in South Africa and Gandhi initiated talks with South African government on this matter. But the Muslims did not support this move and were displeased with Gandhi. In addition to that Gandhi, in one occasion,

Gandhi made some critical comments on Islam while he was speaking at a gathering. Furthermore, he tried to make a comparative estimate of Hinduism, Islam and Christianity, which made the Muslims furious.

A few days later, on 10th February 1908, a group of Muslims under the leadership of a Pathan called Mir Alam entered Gandhi’s house and beat him mercilessly. When Gandhi fell on the ground the Muslim attackers kicked him right and left and beat him with sticks.

They also threatened to kill him. From this incident onward, Gandhi stopped to make any critical comment on Muslims as well as on Islam. According to Dr. B.R. Ambedkar, this incident was a milestone in Gandhi’s life and afterwards Gandhi began to over look even the most heinous crime committed by the Muslims.

An example would help the reader to understand the matter. On 23rd December 1926, a Muslim assassin called Abdul Rashid stabbed Swami Shraddhananda to death, when the swami was ill and lying on his bed. The reader may recall that Swami Shraddhananda was a pracharak (whole time worker) of Arya Samaj and he started a Suddhai Yajna to bring the converted Muslims of this country back to Hinduism.

But his activity was detested by the Muslims. A couple of months earlier a Muslim woman came to the Swami and expressed her desire to return to Hinduism with her children. However her husband brought an allegation of abduction in the court of law against the Swami. But the court quashed the allegation and set the Swami free. The incident turned the Muslims extremely furious and within a few days Abdul Rashid assassinated him.

After a few days of this incident, Gandhi went to Gauhati to deliver his speech at the national conference of Indian National Congress. The atmosphere was depressed and gloomy due to unusual death of Shraddhananda.

But Gandhi made everyone dumbfounded and began his speech by addressing the assassin Abdul Rashid as “Bhai Abdul Rashid”. Without caring for the reaction of the listeners, he continued, “Now you will perhaps understand why I have called Abdul Rashid a brother,

and I repeat it. I do not even regard him as guilty of Swami’s murder. Guilty indeed are those who excited feeling of hatred against one another.” Thus he indirectly held Swami Shraddhananda responsible for his murder, as he was propagating hatred through his Suddhi Yajna.

Moreover, he wrote in the obituary note, “He (the Swami) lived a hero. He died a hero.” In other words, if a Hindu falls victim to the knife of a Muslim’s assassin, Hindus should consider it a heroic death.

It should be pointed out here that the said policy of Muslim appeasement originated by Gandhi, under the garb of (pseudo) secularism was responsible for the Partition of the country in 1947. Many of our countrymen, still today, firmly believe that Gandhi was against partition as in the public meetings, he used to say, “Vivisect me, before you vivisect India”.

When he was saying this in public meetings, he was expressing just the opposite view through his writings. The reader may recall that, on March 26, 1940, the leaders of the Muslim League raised the issue of creation of Pakistan as a separate homeland for them. Hardly a couple of weeks later, supporting demand, Gandhi wrote, “Like other group of people in this country, Muslims also have the right of self determination.

We are living here as a joint family and hence any member has the right to get separated.” (Harijan, April 6, 1940). A couple of years later, he also wrote, “If majority of the Muslims of this country maintain that they are a different nation and there is nothing common with the Hindus and other communities, there is no force on the earth that can alter their view. And if on that basis, they demand partition that must be carried out. If Hindus dislike it, they may oppose it”, (Harijan, April 18, 1942).

The reader should also recall that the Congress Working Committee, in its session on June 12, 1947, decided to place the partition issue to be placed before the All India Congress Committee (AICC) for a debate and the AICC approved the issue in its session held on June 14-15, 1947.

In the beginning of the debate, veteran Congress leaders like Purusottamdas Tandon, Govindaballav Panth, Chaitram Gidwani and Dr S Kichlu etc. placed their very convincing speeches against the motiom. Then Gandhi, setting aside all other speakers, spoke for 45 minutes supporting partition. The main theme of his deliberation was that, if Congress did not accept partition (1) other group of people or leaders would avail the opportunity and throw the Congress out of power and (2) a chaotic situation would prevail throughout the country. Many believe that, in the name of ‘chaotic condition’, he tacitly asked the Muslims to begin countrywide communal riot, if the Congress did not accept the partition. Till then, Sardar Ballavbhat Patel was on the fence regarding the partition. But Gandhi’s speech turned him into a firm supporter of partition and he influenced other confused members to support the issue. In this way, Congress approved the partition issue (History of Freedom Movement in India, R C Majumdar, Vol-III, p-670).

It may appear to many that, up to partition, Gandhi’s policy of nonviolence and Muslim appeasement in the name of secularism indeed harmed the country a lot. But a close look will reveal, it has done severe damage even after partition, or to speak the truth, it is causing serious damage even today. During independence, the Muslim population in undivided India was 23 per cent and this 23 per cent Muslims, got 32 per cent land area as Pakistan. The most appropriate step after partition was to carry out population transfer, or send the entire Muslim population of the divided India to Pakistan and bring all Hindus from Pakistan to India. This population transfer was included in the proposal for Pakistan by the Muslim League and after communal riot in Bihar, M A Jinnah requested the Government of India to carry out population transfer as early as possible. But Gandhi was hell bent not to undertake out the process and said that it was an impractical and fictitious proposal.

Mount Batten, the then Governor General of India, was a staunch supporter of the said population exchange and advised Jawaharlal Nehru to do the same without delay. But Nehru submitted to the will of Gandhi and refrained from doing so. It is needless to say that, from the practical point of view, the said population exchange was urgently necessary and had it been carried out at that time, many problems of today would not have arisen. But due to the policy of Muslim appeasement of Gandhi, Muslims happily stayed back in this country, while Hindus had no alternative but to come to India as refugees or penniless beggars.

Many of us perhaps do not know that due to strong opposition by Gandhi, “Bande Mataram” could not be accepted as the National Anthem” of this country. In his early life, Gandhi had a great affinity for the song and while he was in South Africa, he wrote “It is nobler in sentiment and sweeter than the songs of other nations. While other anthems contain sentiments that are derogatory to others, Bande Mataram is quite free from such faults. Its only aim is to arouse in us a sense of patriotism. It regards India as the mother and sings her praise.” But later on when he could discover that the Muslims dislike the song, he at once stopped singing or reciting the same at public places. Hence ultimately the “Jana Mana Gana” was selected as the National Anthem. During the debate over the matter in the Constituent Assembly, Nehru argued that Bande Mataram is not suitable to sing along with military band while Jana Gana Mana is free from this difficulty.

In the present context, it should also be pointed out that Gandhi was not pleased with Tri Color, the National Flag of today’s India because the Muslims disliked the same. In this regard, Sri Nathuram Godse has narrated an incident in his “Why I Assassinated Gandhi”, which deserves to be noted in this context. During his Noakhali tour in 1946, a Congress worker put a tricolor over the temporary house where Gandhi was staying. One day an ordinary Muslim passer by objected to it and Gandhi immediately ordered his men to bring flag down. So, to please an ordinary Muslim, Gandhi did not hesitate to disgrace and dishonor the flag revered by millions of Congress workers. (pp-75-76). It should also be pointed out here that in his early life, Gahdhi was very fond of the Hindi language and used to say that it was the only language having the potentiality to play the role of the national language. But to please the Muslim, he, later on tried his best to make Urdu, under the garb of Hindustani, the National Language of India. (Koenrad Elst, Gandhi and Godse, Voice of India, p – 89).

A few months before the partition, when Hindu and Sikh refugees started to come from West Punjab in droves and crowding the refugee camps of Delhi, one day Gandhi visited a refugee camp and said, “Hindus should never be angry against the Muslims even if the latter might make up their minds to undo their (Hindus’) existence. If they put all of us to the sword, we should court death bravely. … We are destined to be born and die, then why need we feel gloomy over it?” (speech delivered on April 6, 1947

In a similar occasion he said, “The few gentlemen from Rawalpindi who called upon me, asked me, “What about those who still remain in Pakistan?” I asked, why they all came here (Delhi)? Why they did not die there? I still hold on to the belief that we should stick to the place where we happen to live, even if we are cruelly treated, and even killed. Let us die if the people kill us, but we should die bravely with the name of God on our tongue.” He also said, “Even if our men are killed, why should we feel angry with anybody? You should realize that even if they are killed, they have had a good and proper end” (speech delivered on November 23, 1947)

In this context, Gandhi also said, “If those killed have died bravely, they have not lost anything but earned something. … They should not be afraid of death. After all, the killers will be none other than our Muslim brothers.” (Shri Nathuram Godse, Why I Assassinated Gandhi, p-92,93; as quoted by Koenrad Elst in Gandhi versus Godse, Voice of India, p-121). In another occasion when he was talking to a group of refugees, said, “If all the Punjabis were to die to the last man without killing (a single Muslim), Punjab will be immortal. Offer yourselves as nonviolent willing sacrifices.” (Collins and Lapierre, Freedom at Midnight, p-385). There is no doubt that if someone reads all these utterances of Gandhi, he would take him either a fool or a lunatic, but we are worshiping him as a Mahatma or a Great Soul.

Gandhi believed that Muslims were brothers of the Hindus and hence they should never take arms or wage a war against the Muslims. He used to say that the foreign policy of independent India should always be respectful to Islam and the Muslims. Moreover, independent India should never invade a Muslim country like Arabia, Turkey etc. Gandhi also said that Rana Pratap, Guru Govinda Singh, Raja Ranjit Singh and Raja Shivaji were misguided patriots because they fought war with the Muslims. In his eyes Goerge Washington, Garibaldi, Kamal Pasha, D Valera, Lenin etc. were misguided patriots as they encouraged violence.

Gandhi’s utterances painting respected Hindu heroes as misguided patriots aroused widespread commotion among the Hindus. Most importantly, calling Raja Shivaji a misguided patriots put entire Maharastra on boil. Later on, Nehru could pacify their anger partially by begging apology on behalf of Gandhi.

The Muslims whenever attack a Hindu settlement, they, in addition killing innocent people, setting their houses on fire, loot and burglary as their routine work, rape Hindu women. It is evident that, they commit all such oppressions according to the instructions of the Koran, revealed by Allah. During the Muslim rule that lasted for nearly 800 years, raping Hindu women became a common affair. To save their honour and sanctity from the lecherous Muslims, millions of Hindu women used to sacrific their lives in flames. In the wake of partition most of the Hindu families became victims of Muslim oppression and raping Hindu women was an inseparable part of their attacks. When Hindus were butchered in Noakhali in 1946, thousands of Hindu women were raped by the Muslims.

Many Hindus of this country do not know, what Gandhi, the Great Soul and the Apostle of nonviolence, thought about this behavior of the Muslims. In the 6th July, 1926, edition of the Navajivan, Gandhi wrote that “He would kiss the feet of the (Muslim) violator of the modesty of a sister” (Mahatma Gandhi, D Keer, Popular Prakashan, p-473). Just before the partition, both Hindu and Sikh women were being raped by the Muslims in large numbers. Gandhi advised them that if a Muslim expressed his desire to rape a Hindu or a Sikh lady, she should never refuse him but cooperate with him. She should lie down like a dead with her tongue in between her teeth. Thus the rapist Muslim will be satisfied soon and sooner he leave her. (D Lapierre and L Collins, Freedom at Midnight, Vikas, 1997, p-479).

From the above narrations, it becomes evident that Gandhi was never moved by the sufferings and miseries of the Hindus and, on the contrary, he used to shed tears for the Muslims. His idea of Hindu-Muslim amity was also extremely biased and prejudiced. Only Hindus are supposed to make all sacrifices for it and they should endure all the oppressions and heinous crimes of the Muslims without protest. And that was the basis of Gandhian nonviolence and secularism. So a Muslim called Khlifa Haji Mehmud of Lurwani, Sind, once said “Gandhi was really a Mohammedan” (D Keer, ibid, p-237)

Nexus in Media & Politics

Here are the associations between individuals and organizations that influence Indian politics and discussions in Indian public space.

This compilation is possible only because of the information shared by members. Thanks to all who have contributed.

Notes:
1. Information gathered is from Internet sources, and hence a simple Google search can give you further information or evidence of the association.
2. For adding or changing relationships please post a reply with a reference, I will update the first post.
3. If an association is wrong, please post a reply with a reference. It will be corrected.


Blue color associations were added on May 22nd & 23rd 2009

____________________________________________________________________
Suzanna Arundhati Roy is niece of Prannoy Roy (CEO of NDTV)

Prannoy Roy sits Council on Foreign Relations' International Advisory Board.
Mukesh D. Ambani also sits on CFR's International Advisory Board.
Mukesh is MD, Reliance Industries Ltd.

Prannoy Roy married to Radhika Roy
Radhika Roy is sister of Brinda Karat (CPI(M))
Brinda Karat married to Prakash Karat (CPI(M) - General Secretary)

Prakash was part of debating club in Madras (Chennai).
N.Ram, P.Chidambaram & Mythili Shivaraman were part of this group.
This group started a magazine "Radical Review".

CPI(M)'s senior member of Politburo and Parliamentary Group Leader is Sitaram Yechury.
Sitaram Yechury is married to Seema Chisthi.
Seema Chisthi is the Resident Editor of Indian Express
Burkha Dutt works at NDTV

Prabha Dutt was mother of Burkha Dutt.
Prabha Dutt was a chief reporter for Hindustan Times.

Rajdeep Sardesai was Managing Editor at NDTV
Rajdeep Sardesai married to Sagrika Ghose
Sagarika Ghose is daughter of Bhaskar Ghose.
Bhaskar Ghose was Director General of Doordarshan.
Sagarika Ghose's aunt is Ruma Pal.
Ruma Pal is former justice of Supreme Court.
Sagarika Ghose's another aunt is Arundhati Ghose.
Arundhati Ghose was India's permanent representative/ambassador to United Nations.

Rajdeep is now Editor-in-Chief at CNN-IBN
CNN-IBN is a tie up between GBN (Global Business Network) and Turner International.
GBN is a Network 18 company.
CNN is one of Turner International's asset.
Sagarika also works at CNN-IBN as senior editor and as an anchor.

Dilip D'Souza was member of PIPFD
Dilip D'Souza's father was Joseph Bain D'Souza.
J.B.D'Souza was former Maharastra Chief Seccretary and activist.
Teesta Setalva member of PIPFD
Teesta Setalvad married to Javed Anand
Teesta and Javed run Sabrang Communications.
Javed Anand is General Secretary of Muslims for Secular Democracy { ?? }
Javed Akhtar is spokesperson for Muslims for Secular Democracy
Javed Akhtar married to Shabana Azmi

Karan Thapar owns ITV
ITV produces shows for BBC
Karan Thapar's father was General Pran Nath Thapar COAS during 1962 war, when India lost under his watch.
Karan Thapar was very good friend of Benazir Bhutto and Asif Ali Zardari.
Benazir Bhutto was Pakistan's Prime Minister.
Benazir Bhutto's father was Zulfikar Ali Bhutto.
Z.A.Bhutto served as Pakistan's President.
A.A.Zardar is the current Pakistani's President.
Karan Thapar's Mama was married to Nayantara Sahgal.
Nayantar Sahgal is daughter of Vijayalakshmi Pandit.
Vijayalakshmi Pandit was sister of Jawharlal Nehru.


Medha Patkar is a leading spokesperson for Narmada Bacho Andolan.
NBA was helped by Patrick McCully of International Rivers (formerly Internal Rivers Network.)
Angana Chatterjee was on the board of IRN
Dipti Bhatnagar was an Intern/Volunteer at IRN.
Dipti Bhatnagar is an activist at NBA.
Dr. Angana Chatterjee part of PROXSA
PROXSA mother-ship of FOIL
ASHA endorsed by FOIL
Sandeep Pandey co-founder of Asha for education (ASHA)
Dr. Angana Chatterjee is married to Richard Shapiro
Richard Shapiro is Director and Associate Professor of the Grad. Anthropology Prgm at CIIS
Shubh Mathur co-wrote a letter with Angana on 'Humanitarian Crisis in J&K'
Biju Matthew is co-founder of FOIL.
Vijay Prasad is co-founder of FOIL.
Vijay Prasa co-authored with Angana Chatterjee and wrote against IDRF.
ASHA has association with AID
AID works with FOSA
FOSA started by a Pakistani - Ali Hasan Cemendtaur.
Amitava Kumar associated with FOIL
FOIL & FOSA opposed California Text Book Edits.
California Text Book Edits was opposed by Michael Witzel.
M.Witzel is Wales Professor of Sanskrit at Harvard University.


Rahul Bose is brother-in-law of Khalid Ansari.
Khalid Ansari is the Chairman of Mid-Day Group of Publication based in Mumbai.
Khalid Ansari is Chairman of M.C.Media Ltd.
M.C.Media Ltd. has a join-venture with BBC for FM radio brodcasting.
Khalid Ansari's father was Abdul Hameed Ansari.
A.H.Ansari was a freedom fighter and active Congressman.
Dr.John Dayal worked as a journalist with the N.Delhi edition of Mid-Day.

Narasimhan Ram is the Editor-in-Chief of 'The Hindu'.

N.Ram was part of a CPI(M) debating club along with Prakash Karat

N.Ram's first wife was Susan.
Susan, an Irish, was in charge of Oxford University Press publications in India.
N.Ram and Susan's daughter is Vidya Ram.
Vidya Ram is a journalist.
N.Ram is now married to Mariam.
N.Ram, Jennifer Arul and K.M.Roy participated in closed door Catholic Bishops Conference of India in Thrissur, Kerala.
Jennifer Arul is the Resident Editor and Bureau Chief in South India for NDTV.
Jennifer Arul is Chief Operating Office for Astro Awani - Indonesian news and information channel.
K.M.Roy was a reporter in �The Hindu�
K.M.Roy is the General Editor of the group of the �Mangalam� Publications.
Mangalam Group of Publications was started by M.C.Varghese
K.M.Roy received the �All India Catholic Union Lifetime Award�
All India Catholic Union�s National Vice President is Dr.John Dayal.
Dr.John Dayal is also Secretary General of All India Christian Council (AICC)
AICC�s President is Dr. Joseph D�souza
Dr. Joseph D�souza founded Dalit Freedom Network (USA)
Dr.Joseph D�Souza participated in the inaugural Religious Freedom Day
The Religious Freedom Day was attended by former Republican Sentor Rick Santorum
AICC claims Confederation of SC/ST Organizations (India) as a sister organization.
AICC claims Christian Solidarity Worldwide (UK) as a sister organization.
AICC claims Release International (UK) as a sister organization.
Release International states it supplies bibles and literature to meet the need of growth and evangelism.
Dalit Freedom Network�s partner�s with Operation Mobilization India.
OM India�s South India Regional Director is Kumar Swamy
Kumar Swamy is the State President of Communal Harmony Committee.
Kumar Swamy serves with Karnataka State Human Rights Commission.
OM India�s North India Regional Director is Moses Parmar.
Moses Parmar serves as North India Public Relations officer of the All India Christian Council (AICC)
OM seeks to plant and strengthen churches in areas of the world where Christ is least known.
OM ministries work with Dalit-Bahujan people in India.
Operation Mercy Charitable Company (OMCC) grew out of OM India
OMCC works with Dalit Freedom Network.
DFN has Dr. Kancha Illaiah on its Advisory Board.
Dr. Kancha Illaiah is a Professor in Osmania University, Hyderbad.
DFN has William Armstrong on its Advisory Board.
William Armstrong is a former US Senator from Colarado (Republican).
William Armstrong is currently the President of Colorado Christian University.
Colorado Christian University�s one of the strategic objective is to share the love of Christ around the World.
DFN has Udit Raj on its Advisory Board.
Udit Raj claims Joseph Pitts as a great friend of India.
Joseph Pitts is a Republican US Congressman from Pennsylvannia.
Joseph Pitts sent a letter to Condoleezza Rice, Secretary of State �USA, requesting USA to deny visa to N.Modi.
Joseph Pitts has led a Congressional delegation to Pakistan & India.
Joseph Pitts is Founder and Co-Chairman of the �Kashmir Forum�.
Joseph Pitts along with Congressman John Conyers introduced legislation condemning actions of N.Modi.
John Conyers is Congressman from Michigan�s 14th congressional district.
The 14th district contains Dearbon, a major city.
Dearbon has the largest Arab Americans for a city of its size.
Udit Raj is member of National Integration Council, Government of India.
Udit Raj is National Chairman of Buddha Education Foundation.
Udit Raj is National Chairman of All India Confederation of SC/ST Organizations.
Udit Raj leads Dalit International Foundation
Udit Raj leads Lord Buddha Club.
Udit Raj was part of an international Steering Committee on Kashmir
Majid Tramboo promoted the Steering Committee.
DFN has Baroness Caroline Cox on its Advisory Board.
Baroness Caroline Cox is Deputy Speaker, House of Lords, England.

Suhasini Haidar is daughter of Subramanian Swamy
Suhasini Haidar is daughter-in-law of Salman Haidar

Salman retired as Foreign Secretary in 1996.
Salman was later appointed as High Commissioner to the UK.
Salman was also India's ambassador to China.
Salman has written weekly columns for "The Statesman".
Salman was Minister/Deputy permanent representation of India at UN.
Salman directed South Asian Political Initiative, a Ford Foundation funded project.

Nadira Alvi married V S Naipaul
Nadira Alvi, a journalist, is sister of recently assassinated Maj Gen Amir Faisal Alvi, the ex-chief of Pakistan's elite SSG

�Resalat� is a Tehran-based Persian daily.
�Ettela�at� is another Tehran-based Persian daily.
�Resallat� and �Ettela�at�signed MoU with �Siyasat� and �Munif�
Siyasat and Munif are Hyderbad, Andhra Pradesh based dailies.
Toseeh is another Persian daily.
Toseeh has tied up with Vaarta.
Vaarta is one of the dailies from A.G.A.Publications Pvt Ltd.
A.G.A Publications Pvt Ltd is one of the companies in Sanghi Group
Sanghi Group was co-promoted by Gireesh Sanghi with his brothers.
Gireesh Sanghi is Congress M.P, Rajaya Sabha
Gireesh Sanghi is All India Vaish Federation National President.
Mahendra Mohan Gupta is on the Advisory Board of AIVF
Mahendra Mohan Gupta is Chairman of Dainik Jagran Group

Ramoji Group is headed by Ramoji Rao
Ramoji Rao is Founder & Chairman of Eenadu
Eenadu is the largest Telugu news daily in Andhra Pradesh.
Ramoji Group also owns ETV Network.
ETV Network produces content in Telugu, Bangla, Marathi, Kannada, Oriya, Gujarati, Urdu & Hindi.
Ramoji is reported to be close to Chandra Babu Naidu and supported of Telugu Desam Party.
Ushodaya Enterprises Pvt. Ltd�s parent company is Ramoji Group.
Blackstone Group is reported to have invested Rs600 crore in UEL.

Deccan Chronicle Holdings Ltd brings out The Deccan Chronicle newspaper.
DCHL also brings out �Andhra Bhoomi� a telugu newspaper.
DCHL also brings out �Asian Age�.
DCHL became a publishing parter of �The New York Times�.
DCHL began publishing �The International Herald Tribune�
T.Venkatram Reddy is the Chairman of DCHL.
T.Venkatram Reddy is fromer MP, Rajhya Sabha from Congress.
M.J.Akbar was Editor-in-Chief of Deccan Chronicle and Asian Age.
M.J.Akbar is Founder and Chairman of the fortnightly the Covert.
M.J. Akbar worked at �Times of India�, �Sunday� & �The Telegraph�
M.J.Akbar was an Congress MLA from 1989 to 1991.
M.J.Akbar joined The Brookings Institution, Washington in 2006, as a Visiting Fellow on U.S. Policy Towards the Islamic World.
M.J.Akbar was a member of the �Forum of Islamic Scholars and Intellectual� held in Makkha al-Mukaramma in 2005.
M.J.Akbar�s wife is Mallika Joseph.
Mallika Joseph worked at Times of India.

Y.S.Rajasekhara Reddy is the Chief Minister of Andhra Pradesh.
YSR Reddy is from the Congress party (INC).
YSR Reddy�s father, Raja Reddy, setup a degree college and a Polytechnic in Pulivendula.
YSR Reddy has said that his one year study at Andhra Loyola College (ALC), a Jesuit institution, influenced him so much that he handed over the Pulivendula colleges to the Loyola Group.
The YS family has established several educational institutions in Andhra Pradesh.
YSR Reddy�s daughter is Sharmila.
Sharmila married Anil Kumar, Anil Kumar converted to Christianity after the marriage.
Anil Kumar set up �Anil World Evangelism� and is an active Evangelist.
YSR Reddy�s son is YS Jagan Mohan Reddy.
YS Jagan is a youth Congress Leader.
YS Jagan is Chairman of Jagati Publications Pvt. Ltd.
Bhumna Karunakara Reddy is close to YSR Reddy.
Karunakara Reddy is the Chairman of Tirumala Tirupati Devasthanam.
JPPL publishes the newspaper Sakshi.
Chandra Babu Naidu has claimed that Lanco group was forced to invest in JPPL.
L. Sridhar is alleged to have made the investment from Lanco Group.
L Sridhar is Lanco Infratech�s Vice Chairman
L Sridhar�s brother is L.Rajagopal.
L.Rajagopal joined Congress in 2003.
L Rajagopal is the son-in-law of P.Upendra.
P.Upendra is a former Minister from Congress.
Lanco Group�s Chairman is L. Rajagopal

Andhra Prabha is a telugu newspaper started in 1938.
Andhra Prabha is owned by The New Indian Express Group.

Andhra Jyothi is a telugu newspaper.
Andhra Jyothi�s Managing Director is Vemuri Radhakrishna.

SUN TV Network is owned by Kalanidhi Maran.
Kalanidhi Maran is the Chairman & Managing Director of SUN TV Network.
SUN TV network owns: Sun TV, Gemini TV, Teja TV, Surya TV, Kiran TV, Udaya TV, Surjo TV among other channels.
Kalanidhi Maran owns the tamil daily �Dinakaran�.
Dinakaran was started by a former DMK Minister K.P.Kandasamy.
Kalanidhi Maran�s brother is Dayanidhi Maran.
Dayanidhi Maran was Minister of Communications and IT in the UPA government.
Kalanidhi Maran�s father was Murasoli Maran.
Murasoli Maran was a Union Minister from the DMK party.
Murasoli Maran edited a tamil daily �Murasoli�.
Murasoli Maran was an editor to �The Rising Sun� a English weekly.
Murasoli Maran as a publisher published the following tamil magazines: Kungumam, Muththaram, Vannathirai & Sumangali.
Murasoli Maran�s uncle is M.Karunanidhi.
M.Karunanidhi is Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu, from the DMK party.
M.Karunanidhi launched Kalaignar TV in 2007.
M.K.Azhagiri owns Kalaignar TV.
M.K.Azhagiri is M.Karunanidhi�s son.
M.K.Stalin is another son of the M.Karunanidhi..
M.K.Stalin was named after Joseph Stalin.
Joseph Stalin was the authoritarian leader of the Soviet Union.
M.K.Stalin is the Minister for Rural Development and Local Administration in Tamil Nadu.
Kanimozhi is one of the daughters of M.Karunanidhi.
Kanimozhi was a sub-editor for the �The Hindu�.
Kanimohi was Editor in Charge of �Kungumam� a tamil weekly.
Kanimozhi became a Rajya Sabha member in 2007.
Kanimozhi conducted programs in SUN TV and Vijay TV.
Kanimozhi�s second husband G.Aravindan is Singapore based Tamil literary figure.

Dina Thanthi a tamil daily was founded bu Si.Pa.Aditanar.
Aditanar�s second son is Sivanthi Athithan.
Sivanthi Athithan owns Dina Thanthi.
Aditanar had launced the tamil evening daily �Malai Murasu�.
Aditanar set up Malar Publications Ltd.
Malar Publications Ltd. Brings out the tamil evening newspaper Malai Malar.
Balasubramanian Adityan son of Sivanthi Athithan managers Malar Publications Ltd.
B.Adityan set up �Air Media Network Pvt Ltd� (AMN)
AMN is into cable distribution, content productions and broadcasting.
AMN owns AMN TV
AMN has produced content for FM radio, All India Radio, Doordarshan, Vijay TV.

Dina Mani is a tamil newspaper.
Dina Mani is owned by The New Indian Express Group. (NIEG)
NIEG owns Kannadaprabha, Andhraprabha, Malaylamvarikha, Indiavarta and Expressbuzz.
NIEG also owns Cinemaexpress & Tamilanexpress

STAR Vijay TV is a tamil TV channel.
Vijay TV is owned by STAR TV
STAR TV is owned by News Corporation based in Hong Kong.
News Corporation is owned by Rupert Murdoch.
Fox Entertainment Group is a subsidiary of News Corporation.
FEG owns Fox News Channel, in USA.
Fox News is a conservative, pro-church Republican Party channel in US
News Corporation owns the The Wall Street Journal
Jaya TV is a tamil TV channel.
Jaya TV is owned by Jaya Network.
Jaya Network is owned by J.Jayalalitha
Jayalalitha was the former Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu (AIADMK party)

Makkal TV is owned by Makkal Tholaikatchi


Act Now for Harmony and Democracy�s (ANHAD) Founding and Managing Trustee is Shabnam Hashmi
Shabnam�s father was a freedom fighter.
Shabnam went to USSR on a cultural exchange scholarship for six years.
Shabham is married to Gauhar Raza.
KN Panikkar is a Founding trustee of ANHAD
Panikkar is an Indian Marxist Historian.
Panikkar was the Vice Chancellor of Sree Sankarcharya Sanskrit University, Kalady, Kerala.
Panikkar received Homi Bhabha Senior Fellowship.
Panikkar was awarded Padma Bhushan.
Harsh Mander is a Founding trustee of ANHAD
Harsh Mander is a Human Rights activist, author and was in the IAS.
Harsh Mander was close to Ajit Jogi
Harsh Mander, born into Sikh faith, was in-charge of the relief camps in Indore during the 1984 riots.
Harsh Mander served as Managing Director of SC/ST Finance Corporation.
Harsh Mander was the Director of ActionAid India.
Ajit Jogi was the Chief Minister of Chhatisgarh.
Ajit Jogi is from the Congress party (INC).
It is claimed that after Ajit Jogi, a tribal Christian became the CM the rate of Christian conversions has gone up.
Harsh Mander received the 2002 �Rev. M.A.Thomas National Human Rights Award�
Rev M.A.Thomas National Human Rights Award was awarded by �Vigil India Movement.
Shubha Mudgal is a trustee of ANHAD
Shubha�s parents Skand and Jaya Gupta were professors of English literature at Allahabad University.
Shubha�s grand-father Prof. P.C.Gupta was also a professor at Allahabad University.
Shubha�s first husband was Justice Mukul Mudgal of Delhi High Court.
Shubha is currently married to Aneesh Pradan, a tabla player.
Shubha received Padma Shri.
Shubha has received several awards in the field of music.
Kamla Bhasin is a trustee of ANHAD
Kamla is an Indian feminist.
Kamla was a lecturer in the Orientation Centre of the German Foundation for Developing Countries, Bad Honnef, West Germany.
Kamla was the Development Secretary of Seva Mandir, Udaipur.
Saeed Akhtar Mirza is a trustee of ANHAD
Saeed Mirza is a writer and director in Hindi films and television.
Saeed Mirza�s father is Akhtar Mirza
Akhtar Mirza was a noted film script writer.


Asianet Communications Limited (ACL) has a majority stake in Asianet TV.
ACL is owned by Jupiter Entertainment Ventures Limited (JEVL).
JEVL is a subsidiary of Jupiter Capitals Ltd.
The other media outlets of ACL are: Asianet News, Asianet Plus, Best FM 95, Asianet Suvarana, Suvarna News, Asianet Sitara and Sitara News.
Rajeev Chandrasekhar is the Chairman & Editor-in-chief.
Rajeev Chandrasekar entered Rajya Sabha in 2006.
Rajeev Chandrasekar�s uncle is M.K.Narayanan
M.K.Narayanan is National Security Advisor
M.K.Narayanan headed the Intelligence Bureau from 1987 to 1990.

Malayalam daily, Mathrubhumi, is owned by M P Virendrakumar
Virendrakumar is a MP through Janata Dal (Secular), from Kerala
In Kerala, Deva Gowda's Janata Dal (Secular) party is a constituent of Left Democratic Front
Latest Editor of Mathrubhumi is Kesava Menon
Kesava Menon was the Associate Editor of The Hindu before taking up this position


Shashi Tharoor is an Indian Diplomat.
Shashi is the son of late Chandran Tharoor.
Chandran was a journalist working for Amrita Bazar Patrika of Calcutta.
Chandran headed "The Statesman" in 1959.
Shashi Tharoor is going to contest as INC (Congress) candidate in 2009.
Ishaan and Kanishk are twin sons of Shashi.
Ishaan lives in Hong Kong and works for "Time" magazine.
Kanishk lives in London and works for "OpenDemocracy".
Shobha Tharoor Srinivasan is a sister of Shashi.
Smita Tharoor is another sister of Shashi.
Ragini Tharoor Srinivasan is daughter of Shobha.
Ragini is the editor of "India Currents".
Shobha writes in "India Currents"
India Currents is an Indian American monthly.
Shashi's first wife was Tilottama Mukherji from Kolkata.
Tilottama was/is a journalist and scholar.
Sahshi's second wife is Christ Giles, a Canadian.
Christa is Deputy Secretary of the United Nations Disarmament Commission.
Mukundan Unni was Shashi's maternal uncle.
Tharoor Parameswar was Chandran Tharoor's elder brother.
Parameswar was the founder publisher of the Indian edition of "Reader's Digest".
Param resurrected & presided the Advertising Club of Bombay.
Param was also the Advertising Manager of Amrita Bazar Patrika.


Shobhana Bhartia is the Chairperson and Editorial Director of Hindustan Times group
Shobhana is the daughter of KK Birla; grand daughter of GD Birla.
KK Birla joined INC (Congress) party in 1984.
KK Birla was later elected Rajya Sabha member in 1984.
Shobhana is married to Shyam Sunder Bhartia
Shyam is the Chariman of Jubliant Organosys Ltd, a Pharma company
Shyam is the son of late Mohan Lal Bhartia.
Shamit Bhartia and Priyavrat Bhartia are their sons
Shamit is a Director at the Hindustan Times group.
Shobhana was nominated for Rajya Sabha in 2006.
Shobhana is politically affiliated to INC (Congress).
She was nominated by UPA headed by Sonia Gandhi.
Shobhana was a 2005 Padma Shree award. This was after UPA formed the government in 2004.
Priyavrat is a Director at the Hindustan Times group.
Shamit heads franchises of Dominoes Pizza and Hot Breads.
Shamit also looks after the chain store �Monday to Sunday�
Shobhana is a close family friend of Scindias.
Late Madhavrao Scindia was a Minister from the INC (Congress) party.
Jyotiraditya Scindia is Madhavrao�s son.
Jyotiraditya is a MP from the INC (Congress) party.
Karan Thapar writes a weekly column in Hindustan Times.
Vir Sanghvi writes two columns �Counter Point� and �Rude Food�
Barkha Dutt writes the column �Third Eye�
Sonal Kalra is a editor of HT City a supplement of Hindustan Times and writes a column.


- Joseph Bain D'Souza was CEO of a housing project in which Mrinal Gore, PB Samant and Suresh Narvekar were trustees.
- N. Ram was a founder of Students Federation of India, CPI(M)'s student wing.
- N. Ram's niece is married to Dayanidhi Maran.
- Joseph D'Souza is the head of All India Christian Council.
- Dalit Freedom Network operates out of a church in Colorado. Melody Divine is part of DFN and Melody Divine works for Arizona Congressman Trent Franks.
- Joseph D'Souza is listed in Pat Robertson's 700 club, a group for fundamentalist Christians.
- Dalit Freedom Network is a member of the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability.
-Admin (came via email
0

* Back to top
* Reply Icon MultiQuote
* Reply Icon Reply

#2 User is offline ramana Icon

*
* Advanced Member
* PipPipPip

* Group: Senior Members
* Posts: 2,734
* Joined: 03-October 03

Posted 15 January 2009 - 10:19 AM
SwamyG, perfect for FREEMIND maps using java. Download the software and try it.
0

* Back to top
* Reply Icon MultiQuote
* Reply Icon Reply

#3 User is offline Bodhi Icon

*
* Advanced Member
* PipPipPip

* Group: Senior Members
* Posts: 1,802
* Joined: 26-December 07

Posted 15 January 2009 - 05:45 PM
Swamy G,

pointer: research on Jennifer Arul of NDTV. I had posted some stuff on her before. She is likely a go-between for NDTV and Naxal Ram, besides being a self-declared journalist-for-a-cause (i.e. christianism in this case).
0

* Back to top
* Reply Icon MultiQuote
* Reply Icon Reply

#4 User is offline Bodhi Icon

*
* Advanced Member
* PipPipPip

* Group: Senior Members
* Posts: 1,802
* Joined: 26-December 07

Posted 15 January 2009 - 07:38 PM
"Rahul Bose is brother-in-law of Khalid Ansari."

who married whose sister.

and you may want to include:

Suhasini Haidar is daughter of Subramanian Swamy
Suhasini Haidar is daughter-in-law of Salman Haidar
0

* Back to top
* Reply Icon MultiQuote
* Reply Icon Reply

#5 User is offline Pandyan Icon

*
* Advanced Member
* PipPipPip

* Group: Members
* Posts: 469
* Joined: 30-December 07

Posted 15 January 2009 - 08:01 PM
Wow this is one big bongo party.
0

* Back to top
* Reply Icon MultiQuote
* Reply Icon Reply

#6 User is offline Swamy G Icon

*
* Advanced Member
* PipPipPip

* Group: Members
* Posts: 323
* Joined: 18-January 08

Posted 15 January 2009 - 08:09 PM
Bodhi: Rahul's sister - Anuradha - is married to Tariq Ansari. Linky: http://m.chakpak.com...biography/14106

Tariq could be related to Khalid.
0

* Back to top
* Reply Icon MultiQuote
* Reply Icon Reply

#7 User is offline Bodhi Icon

*
* Advanced Member
* PipPipPip

* Group: Senior Members
* Posts: 1,802
* Joined: 26-December 07

Posted 15 January 2009 - 08:31 PM
Nadira Alvi married V S Naipaul
Nadira Alvi, a journalist, is sister of recently assassinated Maj Gen Amir Faisal Alvi, the ex-chief of Pakistan's elite SSG
0

* Back to top
* Reply Icon MultiQuote
* Reply Icon Reply

#8 User is offline Swamy G Icon

*
* Advanced Member
* PipPipPip

* Group: Members
* Posts: 323
* Joined: 18-January 08

Posted 16 January 2009 - 09:33 AM
Bodhi: Thanks for the link between Jennifer Arul and N.Ram. I found a small connection, dunno how strong though, but that led me to other connections. Wait for the weekend :-) I do not know if I should jump with glee or cry on discovering the various connections. And I am not sure if the connections are just weak connections, but definitely there exists something.
0

* Back to top
* Reply Icon MultiQuote
* Reply Icon Reply

#9 User is offline Husky Icon

*
* Advanced Member
* PipPipPip

* Group: Senior Members
* Posts: 2,615
* Joined: 30-December 07

Posted 16 January 2009 - 03:10 PM
1.
QUOTE(Swamy G @ Jan 15 2009, 07:06 AM)
Tariq Ansari is the Managing Director of Mid-Day Multimedia.
Mid-Day Multimedia's guiding force is Khalid Ansari.
Khalid Ansari is the Chairman of Mid-Day Group of Publication based in Mumbai.
View Post

Wackypedia as at sometime today -
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dayal
QUOTE
John Dayal
John Dayal, (New Delhi, Oct. 2, 1948 - ) is an Indian Christian activist and campaigner for Dalit rights. Formerly a journalist with the Delhi edition of the Indian tabloid newspaper, the Mid-Day, he has gone on to found and preside over the ecumenical All India Christian Council and United Christian Forum for Human Rights. Dayal, born of Christian parents from Central India, is married and resides normally in New Delhi. He describes himself as a "human rights activist" who is "fighting for the rights of Muslim, Christian and Dalit minorities" in India. He is associated with numerous Christian evangelical groups, such as Dalit Freedom Network[1].

He has attacked anti-Conversion bills passed in various states in India[1].

Criticism
He has been described by Francois Gautier as a radical fanatic[2]. P.N Benjamin, the coordinator of the Bangalore Initiative for Religious Dialogue, said that Dayal "opens his mouth and wields his pen only to spew venom on the Hindu community"[3] >.John Dayal was very popular among some anti-Hindu elements, such as the (now defunct) website Dalitstan, where his works were frequently showcased [4]. Rediff columnist Varsha Bhosle criticizes Dayal for having subversive separatist views and misrepresenting the Catholic Church in India [5].


2.
QUOTE
But something in me does not want to. I am torn. So I took the path of not including them.
This is not about you.
It is about other people - your list's audience - who have not yet learnt to see the pattern, who do not know to identify christianism. And whose ignorance you are only perpetuating by concealing the most important fact of all: that of 'religious' (terrorist) motivation guiding all these seemingly random secular 'coincidences'.

Your list, stripped of this most important fact, will not help any target audience. The pattern is what needs to be revealed so that people can learn to recognise it and work things out for themselves. The individuals in your list are incidental: they can and will in future be replaced by other cryptos - who will all behave the same way to further their terrorism. Unless people can learn to pick up on the pattern of the otherwise-hard-to-identify hand of christianism, it serves 0 purpose. (Islamism is often easier to recognise)


Your being 'torn' is beside the point. I don't know when stating the truth can ever be an offence. I'm just asking you to state the facts which crypto names will not provide: that Prannoy Roy is a christian as is Suzanna Roy, that N.Ram's wives are christians, etcetera. The cryptos have hidden their identities behind Hindu names and symbols (e.g. bindis) on purpose. Why Hindus would go along with their intention is beyond me. Why are secularised Hindus so conditioned that they will not even dare say *what religions* are involved? The conditioning has got Hindus censoring themselves. Dhimmitude.

At least people should be consistent in censoring themselves. Therefore do not identify:
- the NLFT as being christian - it murdered Shanti Tripura and countless other Hindus
- the christian maoists in Orissa as christians - they murdered Swami Lakshmanananda and the other Hindus who were with him.
- various LTTE heads as christians who have murdered inconvertibles of SL.

Maybe secular Hindus' position should be that the ideology in all of this is really coincidence, not important?

Maybe Hindus should do what the psecular christian media does, and describe incidents as "the majority community was attacked by the minority community. Again." And refer to islamic terrorism as merely "terrorism".
And then, in natural consequence, follow the communist hysterians in deciding that history should be purged of communal events (since these were instigated by the 'minorities' of course) to make it less offensive to the minority communities' religious sensitivities.

Christoislamis feel solidarity only with their own kind (but will form temporary alliances if these would serve their long-term purposes). Secular Hindus show solidarity only with christoislamis, and will sell Hindu victims for this. Christoislamics never feel torn when they announce jihad or Nagaland for christ and when the NLFT murders Hindus beyond count. Quite contrary to secular Hindus. However the secular Hindu's sensitivity is not uniform, but partial: it feels pain and injury only when it comes to naming christianism and islamism since this might offend the venerable sensibilities of the 'minorities'. The secular Hindu's sensitivity obviously feels absolutely nothing for such things as this:
http://www.christian...S&id=1069383784
QUOTE
Large-scale conversions triggered a systematic ethnic cleansing campaign sponsored by the Church which lead to migration of Reangs and Brus from Mizoram to Tripura and Assam, who have since been languishing in different make-shift camps and demanding safe return and rehabilitation to their ancestral homeland.

More shocking is that the refugees were also deprived of their voting rights in the last November Assembly elections in Mizoram. There are now 45,000 refugees in the two states - about 36,000 in Tripura and another 9,000 in Assam. They are uncertain of returning to their ancestral land and their only hope now seems to rest on the Centre to resolve the problem.

These refugees are living under terrible conditions in the make- shift camps. Last year, over 350 refugees had died following the spread of gastroenterities and other diseases. Even now, paucity of medicines and food exist as quantities supplied by the camp authorities are not sufficient.

Sixteen-year old Maniram Reang, sheltered in a refugee camp in North Tripura, said, "Our condition is like that of animals here," adding "We do not know what crime we have done to live away from our motherland in such terrible conditions in refugee camps."

Similar camps for refugees are located at Gachirampara, Dosda, Anandbazar and Kanchanpur.

The recent bomb attack was intended to scare away Reangs who wish to participate in the upcoming elections in Christian dominated Mizoram.

http://www.christian...46733&type=news
QUOTE
Thirteen Years of Killings in Tripura by the NLFT
Posted August 10, 2003
NLFT Killings (1989-2003)

Below is a summary of past actions carried out by Christian terrorist group, NLFT (The National Liberation Front of Tripura), which is armed and funded by the Baptist Church.
A long timeline.

Another brief sample timeline is contained in
http://www.christian...S&id=1081134529
Cleansing of Hindus in Tripura
April 4, 2004


QUOTE
Will always remain an evil yindoo.
Yes, concealing the truth is evil (and the error compounded further when you choose to do it merely because it otherwise causes inconvenience to you). To do so is wrong since you know otherwise, since you can do otherwise, since revealing the truth could help open the eyes of many and teach them the need to resist the menace.

It is a form of treachery, it is a crime against truth and against the many victims of terrorist ideologies.

QUOTE
But something in me does not want to. I am torn. So I took the path of not including them.
But I'm glad you no longer feel torn now, having made your decision. No matter about the many people dead (like those in the links above); they are sufficient pay for salvaging your selective conscience that's only injured when it comes to identifying christoislamania as the source for various terrorisms, subversion and disinformation.

Hmmm, there *is* something deep to what you say, though. It outlines a new Dharma for this new Age of ours. I should perhaps start following your example. But I think I'll defer feeling torn about covering for the criminal ideologies until it's your family/descendants' names that are up on that list of NLFT/other christoislamic gang's victims. You will not mind that, surely, as I'll then only be taking your excellent moral leadership as my guide: that it is okay for truth to be sacrificed for the sake of alleviating one's slight sensitivities when it comes to the obviously undelectable task of identifying and rightfully denouncing the greatest terrorism. I'm sure that when the times comes, I will have learnt to develop the required 'sensitivity' too. And to take the same 'path' too.

See, what I cannot do for the Hindus already dead, I am willing to do for you: I will then make myself into the same sort of 'evil yindoo' you choose to be now. I think I am very capable - to feel nothing at all for secular victims of christoislamism who previously were themselves ambivalent about other victims. Yes. I will be fashionably torn too. I'll make it look good. Just say the word.

The question that remains is only this: Do you wish me to look forward to this future exercise? You would not wish to play the hypocrite, I think? (Or you may choose to argue that you and yours are more important than the incomplete list of murdered dead above. I am not familiar with your/secular ethics.)



3. What's this about "nationalism"? Christianism and islamism are not a threat against nationalism. (In Nepal they are creating 'nationalism' as the anti-Hindu movement. In SL they have created a Tamizh identity movement. In TN they have created a Dravidian identity movement.) Christoislamism is a threat against Dharma, against Natural Traditions. They will use whatever means is necessary: Nationalism in Nepal, anti-nationalism in Bharatam, piggybacking with islamic terrorism against the country. Any and all means.

The ancient Romans, giving up on correcting the ceaseless christian intolerance against their Natural Traditions, reduced their expectations of them to mere nationalism too. The christians, who were traitors against pagan Rome, did eventually become nationalists: but only when the empire had become christian, of course. So whoever was worried about anti-nationalists need do nothing and only wait. Then they will all become nationalists in time. But that says nothing about the cost at which this will be achieved, of course. Or the sort of nation that will result.
0

* Back to top
* Reply Icon MultiQuote
* Reply Icon Reply

#10 User is offline Swamy G Icon

*
* Advanced Member
* PipPipPip

* Group: Members
* Posts: 323
* Joined: 18-January 08

Posted 16 January 2009 - 07:14 PM
Husky: Thanks for the info on John Dayal. Following Bodhi's lead on Jennifer Arul and N.Ram, I did land on John Dayal. Jennifer and Ram were in a closed door session with one K.M.Roy. Roy was recipient of All India Catholic Union LIfetime Award. John Dayal is National Vice President of that organization.....and the connections keep on going like Hanumar's vaalu.
0

* Back to top
* Reply Icon MultiQuote
* Reply Icon Reply

#11 User is offline ramana Icon

*
* Advanced Member
* PipPipPip

* Group: Senior Members
* Posts: 2,734
* Joined: 03-October 03

Posted 17 January 2009 - 01:07 AM
Husky, Dont mind lekin, let SwamyG carry on his compilation It can be latter reviewed for other linkages. What you are suggesting at the outset will serve to delay the compilation which is the object. A complied list can always be reviewed, while compilation is a non-starter if full research is demanded.

Thanks, ramana
0

* Back to top
* Reply Icon MultiQuote
* Reply Icon Reply

#12 User is online Mudy Icon

*
* Advanced Member
* Icon

* Group: Administrators
* Posts: 18,050
* Joined: 13-August 03

Posted 17 January 2009 - 01:59 AM
Fr Cedric Prakash + Medha Patkar of Narmada Andaloan is financial benifited and linked with Right Livelihood Foundation (Sweden) and Goldman Foundation , San Francisco, CA based organisation

Same organisation is supporting FOSA and FOIL in USA
0

* Back to top
* Reply Icon MultiQuote
* Reply Icon Reply

#13 User is offline Viren Icon

*
* Advanced Member
* Icon

* Group: Administrators
* Posts: 5,184
* Joined: 13-August 03

Posted 17 January 2009 - 02:46 AM
Check this post from Pioneer
It links emails and communications between Medha Patkar and Patrick McCully, former director of the International Rivers Network at Barkley in the US.
And guess who's on board of International Rivers Network? Angana Chatterji!
0

* Back to top
* Reply Icon MultiQuote
* Reply Icon Reply

#14 User is offline Swamy G Icon

*
* Advanced Member
* PipPipPip

* Group: Members
* Posts: 323
* Joined: 18-January 08

Posted 17 January 2009 - 09:38 AM
Folks: All recent additions, that I promised for this weekend, are in red. I will change the color after few days. I have that color coded so that IF members can distinguish the updates I made.

I thought I will change the red color to black after 3 days. Does that sound okay?
0

* Back to top
* Reply Icon MultiQuote
* Reply Icon Reply

#15 User is offline Husky Icon

*
* Advanced Member
* PipPipPip

* Group: Senior Members
* Posts: 2,615
* Joined: 30-December 07

Posted 17 January 2009 - 11:11 AM
Two separate lines - John Dayal and Medha Patkar, since she got mentioned here:
QUOTE(Viren @ Jan 17 2009, 02:38 AM)
Check this post from Pioneer
It links emails and communications between Medha Patkar and Patrick McCully, former director of the International Rivers Network at Barkley in the US.
And guess who's on board of International Rivers Network? Angana Chatterji!
View Post

QUOTE(Viren @ Oct 5 2006, 07:58 PM)
From India-Cause:

e-Petition to the President of India:
No mercy for the Terrorist. Mohammed Afzal must hang for his terror
act!

At http://www.iVarta.com
------------------------

Entire nation is shocked to see Chief Minister Ghulam Nabi Azad, Dr
Farooq Abdullah and several other personalities (Gandhian Nirmala
Deshpande, social activist Medha Patkar, writer Arundhati Roy) making a
passionate plea for the life of a terrorist, Mohammed Afzal Guru, the
mastermind behind the Parliament attack, who is facing execution on October
20th.
[...]

http://www.ivarta.co...v005_afzal.aspx

Please forward this message to your friends as well.
View Post

www.swamiagnivesh.com/alw19.htm
QUOTE
a powerful multi-religious movement under the name Adhyatma Jagran Manch has been launched. Swami Agnivesh, the renowned social and spiritual activist, Nirmala Deshpande, the noted Gandhian, and the Revd. Valson Thampu, academic and Christian theologian are the founding members.
"multi-religious" movement of the non-Hindu and self-declared marxist uglyface, christo valson thampu (with whom uglyface had written an anti-Hindu book on Godhra), and the non-Hindu nitwala deshbandit.


John Dayal and Thampu are connected, of course:
http://www.christian...S&id=1106805454
QUOTE
Indian Irony: Evangelist Dayal is on National Integration Council

Posted January 27, 2005
Tribune News Service
New Delhi, January 24

The Indian government has nominated Evangelist Dr John Dayal as member of the National Integration Council (NIC).

Mr Dayal is President of the All-India Catholic Union and Secretary-General of the All-India Christian Council.

Another Christian member of the council is Rev Valson Thampu.

The NIC was institutionalised as a forum for deliberating on key policy issues and to discuss effective strategies to combat the evils of communalism, casteism, regionalism and separatism.
After his nomination, he was made a member.
From islamic paper -
www.milligazette.com/Archives/2005/01-15Feb05-Print-Edition/011502200519.htm
QUOTE
John Dayal is member of NIC

The central Government has nominated senior journalist and Civil Society activist Dr. John Dayal as a member of the newly reconstituted National Integration Council. John Dayal is President of the All India Catholic Union and the Secretary General of the All India Christian Council. Another Christian member of the Council is Rev Valson Thampu. Past members have included the late Archbishop Alan De Lastic of Delhi. The prime minister chairs the NIC whose membership includes chief ministers, central ministers and prominent leader of various political parties and religious communities. �



Some more crypto christians (known, declared):
http://arkabala.sule...ts/pageno-2.htm
Colour delineation as in original
QUOTE
Christian-Missionary Raj in India thru Sonia (Miano) Gandhi by Arkabala
Are we heading towards a Christian India ? Francois Gautier
[...]
Yet there are today five Christian chief ministers in Nagaland, Mizoram, Meghalaya, Kerala and Andhra Pradesh.
One should add that the majority of politicians in Sonia Gandhi�s closed circle are either Christians or Muslims. She seems to have no confidence in Hindus.Ambika Soni, a Christian, is General Secretary of the Congress and a very powerful person, with close access to Sonia Gandhi. Oscar Fernandes is Union Programme Implementation Minister. Margaret Alwa is the eminence grise of Maharasthra. Karnataka is virtually controlled by AK Anthony, whose secretaries are all from the Southern Christian association. Valson Thampu, a Hindu hater, is Chairman NCERT curriculum Review Committee, John Dayal, another known Hindu baiter, has been named by Sonia Gandhi in the National Integration Council; and Kancha Ilaya, who hates Hindus, is being allowed by the Indian Government to lobby with the UN and US Congress so that caste discrimination in India is taken-up by these bodies. ( One can also add to list Ajit jogi, and Digvijay Singh both christian converts & also Pranoy Roy, his niece Arundhati 'suzanna' roy )
<- So another instance where Suzanna Roy is said to be the niece of Pra(n)noy. Which is it then, cousin or niece?

http://rajeev2004.bl...t-of-india.html
QUOTE
Thursday, June 14, 2007
Pratibha Patil for President of India - whose candidate ?
jun 14th, 2007

sanjay has a good point. ambika soni is not a crypto-christist, she's
a stealth-christist, one who keeps a hindu name to fool the gullible;
much like anand sharma. the cabal around sonia gandhi is almost
entirely christist. i also heard that arjun singh's wife is one.

there is a precedent for this, in how south vietnam was taken over by
the catholics, who made life hell for the majority buddhists there,
during the reign of the likes of madame nhu. buddhist monks were
immolating themselves left and right because of the oppression. of
course, the communists and the yanks between them took care, so to
speak, of the problem by destroying the country.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Sanjay

Who/what exactly does she represent ?
Was Soniaji guided by any divine considerations in nominating her
as the UPA candidate for President of India ? Perhaps, a wink/nudge
from the Opus Dei and it's representatives Valson Thampu, John Dayal et al.

A google search for "Pratibha Patil secular" primarily yields information
from Christian/Indian "secular" sources.

The singular achievement of Smt. Pratibha Patil in public life seems to be
her refusal, as Governor of Rajasthan, to endorse the anti-conversion legislation enacted
by the BJP state government there.

Does anyone remember the harsh criticism of Rajasthan and India by
Pope Benedict XVI on this issue, a few moths ago ?

What distinguishes Smt. Pratibha Patil from other crypto-Christians like
Ambika Soni or Girija Vyas?

Why not go all out and nominate Margaret Alva or Sr. Nirmala Joshi instead?
They could continue K.R Narayanan's agenda with impunity in Rashtrapati
Bhavan.

This needs to be seen in the context of Navin Chawla's elevation as
Election commissioner and the increasing belligerence of Samuel Reddy,
Ajit Jogi, Oscar Fernandes & co.

This has ominous portents for the Indian Republic.
Cry my beloved country, cry.

Sincerely,
Sanjay
Posted by nizhal yoddha at 6/14/2007 11:17:00 AM
About Nizhal Yoddha's line of "the cabal around sonia gandhi is almost entirely christist":
http://conversionage...missionary.html
QUOTE
Death of a Missionary
By Rajeev Srinivasan
[...]
What Madame Gandhi committed was an act of political naivete: she surrounded herself, as soon as she became Congress party leader, with a clique consisting only of Christians -- eg. Vincent George, Tom Thomas, Tommy Thomas, Margaret Alva, Ajit Jogi, Purno Sangma. I am told she has always been an avid church-goer, named her son Rahul John Paul Gandhi (presumably after the most fiercely fundamentalist Pope in recent times), made sure her daughter married a Catholic; and, in general, made no bones about her strong preference for Christianity.



http://www.expressbu...njswClsuc=&type
Sonia�s presence in Delhi is costing India dearly by Francois Gautier



So what does all that give us:

- love triangle of marxist swarmy uglyface, nirmala deshpande, christian valson thampu
- christian valson thampu and christian john dayal happy together at NIC
- suzanna roy, nirmala deshpande, medha patkar and islamis for saving mohammed afzal
- antonia 'sonia' maino appointed john dayal at NIC


Christians and crypto christians in charge or with some power:
- Cryptos: Ambika Soni, Anand Sharma, Girija Vyas, Ajit Jogi and Digvijay Singh
- Samuel Reddy (crypto), AK Antony, Oscar Fernandes
- Sonia's chosen: Vincent George, Tom Thomas, Tommy Thomas, Margaret Alva, Ajit Jogi, Purno Sangma
- Nizhal Yoddha at rajeevblogspot2004 heard Arjun Singh's wife is a christian: "i also heard that arjun singh's wife is one"
- The Sanjay quoted by Nizhal Yoddha wonders about Pratibha Patil:
QUOTE
What distinguishes Smt. Pratibha Patil from other crypto-Christians like Ambika Soni or Girija Vyas?
Why not go all out and nominate Margaret Alva or Sr. Nirmala Joshi instead?
They could continue K.R Narayanan's agenda with impunity in Rashtrapati
Bhavan.

This needs to be seen in the context of Navin Chawla's elevation as
Election commissioner and the increasing belligerence of Samuel Reddy,
Ajit Jogi, Oscar Fernandes & co.
Mentions in the above are given to the following persons, the implication from the surrounding context seems to make these christian as well?
- Sr. Nirmala Joshi, K.R Narayanan, Navin Chawla

And Sanjay also mentions Opus Dei with respect to Thampu and Dayal concerning Pratibha's appointment:
"Perhaps, a wink/nudge from the Opus Dei and it's representatives Valson Thampu, John Dayal et al."

Considering it is from Rajeev Srinivasan's blog (same Srinivasan who interviewed Ishwar Sharan and asked the Opus Deiiiiii question), and the blog writers like Nizhal Yoddha are chosen by the same, I think Rajeev at least - and possibly his team - know a bit more but don't have supporting data to give for it. Hence they make informal references to affiliations and associations (like in the case of Arjun Singh's wife, mention of Opus Dei). And draw parallels between the S Vietnam case (or S Korea or Greece and Rome, for that matter). This is all one can do in the end with respect to organised crypto christianism. Poor Hindus.
At least Rajeev2004blogspot is not too squeamish to mention the blatant christianism in all this colossal mess.
0

* Back to top
* Reply Icon MultiQuote
* Reply Icon Reply

#16 User is offline Bharatvarsh Icon

*
* Advanced Member
* PipPipPip

* Group: Senior Members
* Posts: 2,397
* Joined: 13-April 05

Posted 17 January 2009 - 08:27 PM
QUOTE
It links emails and communications between Medha Patkar and Patrick McCully, former director of the International Rivers Network

International Rivers Network is a well known "environmental" type org, and has blocked the construction of many hydroelectric dams in the developing world, not surprised that angana is in there, most "environmental" orgs have all sorts of commies and extreme leftists whose agenda has almost nothing to do with environment, and more to do with being anti corporation, anti globalization, and whatever else is needed to bring about a red revolution.
0

* Back to top
* Reply Icon MultiQuote
* Reply Icon Reply

#17 User is offline Swamy G Icon

*
* Advanced Member
* PipPipPip

* Group: Members
* Posts: 323
* Joined: 18-January 08

Posted 17 January 2009 - 09:57 PM
QUOTE
At least Rajeev2004blogspot is not too squeamish to mention the blatant christianism in all this colossal mess.

Husky: I will save you from having to continue to whine and rant.

If you do not like my stance of pining someone based on his religion; and think I am squeamish. Feel free to step in. I will hand over this thread to you. You can feel free to have your choice of words. I will happy to contribute though.
0

* Back to top
* Reply Icon MultiQuote
* Reply Icon Reply

#18 User is online Mudy Icon

*
* Advanced Member
* Icon

* Group: Administrators
* Posts: 18,050
* Joined: 13-August 03

Posted 17 January 2009 - 10:31 PM
Bharatvarsh,
Check who funds International Rivers Network. All regular country destroyers. They fund Indians to destroy their own country and they hire Indians from WB or mjority of WB is due to Cronyism. They provide so-called scholarship in India and US etc and ask them to provide info.
0

* Back to top
* Reply Icon MultiQuote
* Reply Icon Reply

#19 User is offline dhu Icon

*
* Advanced Member
* PipPipPip

* Group: Senior Members
* Posts: 2,742
* Joined: 17-April 04

Posted 19 January 2009 - 12:20 AM
Aung San Suu Kyi married to british national, Dr. Michael Aris, "a scholar of Tibetan culture, living abroad in Bhutan." Studied in Lady Shri Ram College for Women.
0

* Back to top
* Reply Icon MultiQuote
* Reply Icon Reply

#20 User is online Mudy Icon

*
* Advanced Member
* Icon

* Group: Administrators
* Posts: 18,050
* Joined: 13-August 03

Posted 19 January 2009 - 12:38 AM
Dalai Lama - West and hollywood ?????
0

* Back to top
* Reply Icon MultiQuote
* Reply Icon Reply

Search Topic
Forum HomeIndian History & Culture |-- Indian History |-- Indian CultureIndian Politics, Business & Economy |-- Indian Politics |-- Strategic Security of India |-- Business & EconomyIndian and International Forces |-- Military DiscussionCurrent Affairs & News |-- Newshopper - Discuss recent newsGeneral Topics |-- General Topics |-- Member ArticlesArchives |-- Library & Bookmarks |-- Trash Can

* ← Previous Topic
* Indian Politics
* Next Topic →

* (7 Pages)
* +
* 1
* 2
* 3
* →
* Last »

* You cannot start a new topic
* You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users


Skin and Language
Language:
Execution Stats

* Time Now: Jul 06 2010 10:49 AM

* Back to top
* Forum Home
* Delete My Cookies
* Mark Board As Read

Powered By IP.Board © 2010 IPS, Inc.

GANDHI’S LOYALTY TO BRITISH CROWN

by Dr Radhasyam Brahmachari

The January 5, 2009 edition of the renowned daily The Times of India
carried a press report titled “Gandhi donned army uniform for the
British”, that said, “It might seem surprising but it is that in the
year 1899, Mahatma Gandhi donned a uniform. This uniform belonged to a
voluntary ambulance unit, which he created” (article by J P Chaturvadi
published in the Sainik Samachar edition of October 9, 1977). The
article contained a rare picture of Gandhi sporting the British Army
uniform during the Anglo-Boer war that broke out in South Africa in
1899. It should be mentioned here that the Dutch had their own colony
in South Africa and in 1899, a clash of interest began between these
two colonialists which turned into a military confrontation in
December, 1899 and simply to please the British Government, Gandhi
created the said 1,100 strong Indian volunteer and the stretcher
bearer corps. During the war Gandhi was personally sympathetic to the
Dutch. But, he later on confessed that, to please the British he
sacrificed his conscience.



“The performance of his voluntary ambulance unit was appreciated by
all when the Anglo-Boer war ended in 1902, after the capture of
Transvaal. The commander-in-chief of the army mentioned the heroic
deeds performed by this ambulance unit, whose workers walked 20 to 25
miles a day to carry out voluntary duties to help the injured”, says
the article. After the victory in the war, British Government
presented a medal and a citation to Gandhi which he preserved with
great respect till his death. It should be mentioned here that Gandhi
strongly believed that the British Empire was for the welfare of the
entire world and he maintained this view till his death. Later, Gandhi
proudly recalled how he loyally served the British during the Boer War
and put his life in peril, particularly while his ambulance corps was
working at the battle fields of Colenso, Spion Kop and Vaalkranz.



While in South Africa, Gandhi did not miss a single
opportunity to please the British crown. Just after the Boer war,
Gandhi expressed his loyalty by sending felicitation to Queen Victoria
on her birthday. Queen Victoria died in January, 1901 and Gandhi sent
a condolence message to the Colonial Secretary in London, laid a
wreath on the pedestal of the Queen’s statue in Durban and distributed
picture of the Queen among the school children. Later on, when George-
V was coroneted as the king of England, Gandhi expressed his loyalty
by sending congratulatory telegram to England that read, “The Indian
residents of this country (i.e. South Africa) sent congratulatory
cablegrams on the occasion, thus declaring their loyalty”.



To please the British colonialists, Gandhi used to sing
National Anthem of England in public meetings though he could discover
violence in the following two lines of the song

“Scatter her enemies, and make them fall;

Confound their politics;

frustrate their knavish
tricks”.



When Gandhi lived in South Africa, a violent form of apartheid was in
vogue there. In some occasions, Gandhi himself was a victim of that
discrimination. The Negroes or the original inhabitants of South
Africa were divided in many tribes, e.g. the Zulus, the Swazis, the
Basutos and the Bechuanas. Among them, the tallest and the most
handsome were the Zulus. In February, 1906, the Zulus rose to revolt
against the Natal Government. The Zulu chief advised members of his
tribe non-payment of new tax imposed upon them. This resulted in
assassination of a sergeant and the clash that followed developed into
a rebellion.



Being a black himself, Gandhi should have sided with the
Zulus, but he supported the British. “His lip sympathy was for the
Zulus, but his head was with the British Empire”. The British
Government of Natal ruthlessly put down the rebellion. Though Gandhi
confessed that it was not a war but a man-hunt, he sided with the
British. Later on he said, “But I then believed that the British
Empire existed for the welfare of the world. A genuine sense of
loyalty prevented me from even wishing ill to the Empire”.



In 1909, Lord Ampthill visited South Africa and Gandhi was
out to please him by whatever means he could. The British statesmen
and rulers always wanted a man who condemned extremists and
revolutionists in India and Gandhi took the opportunity to please
Armphill by denouncing the revolutionaries of India and their policy.
Through several letters, Gandhi tried to convince him that his
doctrine of passive resistance or nonviolent Satyagraha has no
intention to hurt others – ‘a satyagrahi do not inflict sufferings on
others, but he invites it on himself’. Many believe that it was the
most important cause that inspired the British to bring Gandhi to
India, made him the topmost leader of Indian freedom movement and his
creed of Satyagraha was projected as the only mode of freedom struggle
in India.



At that time, British in India were terribly afraid of violent
freedom struggle launched by the patriots of Bengal, Maharastra and
Punjab and particularly in Bengal, where life of an Englishman was not
safe. So in 1911, the British Government on India had to shift its
capital from Calcutta to a safer place in New Delhi. But it has been
pointed out above that Gandhi, through his speeches and writings,
could have managed to expose that he was against any sort of violence
in Indian freedom movement. At that historic hour, people of this
country saw Sri Gopal Krishna Gokhale to sail to London and visit
South Africa on his return journey. He landed at Cape Town on October
22, 1912, and pressed Gandhi to return to India. While in London,
Gokhale pleaded to the Prime Minister Mr. Gladstone to repeal the so
called Black Act of South Africa, an unjust and discriminatory tax of
£ 3 imposed per Indian, for which Gandhi was then fighting. Mr.
Gladstone agreed just to glorify Gandhi and the followers of Gandhian
nonviolence usually highlight this fact as a great victory of Gandhi
and his creed.



After reaching South Africa, Gokhale, whom Gandhi revered as his
political guru, communicated this piece of news to Gandhi and said
that he (Gandhi) would have to return to India within a year
(according to the plan of their British master). Apart from his
unwavering loyalty to the British Empire, Gandhi was chosen by the
British as the new leader of India’s freedom struggle due his newly
invented doctrine of nonviolence. It was not difficult for the British
to understand that his harmless and nonviolent Satyagraha would pose
no threat to the British Empire.



Why Gopal Krishna Gokhale took so much interest in bringing Gandhi
back to India? The reader would recall that on 28 December 1885,
British government of India formed the Indian National Congress with
Allan Octavian Hume as the president and few other eminent, loyal and
English educated Indians like Dadabhai Naoroji, Gopal Krishna Gokhale,
Phirozeshah Mehta and so on. The sole intention was simply to get
prior information of what the Indians were thinking and going to do in
near future so that another Sepoy Mutiny might not recur. At the
beginning it was like an elite club dominated by the loyalists. But
later on, appearance of Bal Gangadhar Tilak, Lala Lajpat Rai and Bepin
Bihari Pal (popularly known as Lal Bal Pal), the scenario changed
considerably. Lokamanya Tilak was first to embrace independence of
India from British rule as the national goal and it aroused the first
spurt of nationalism among the members of the Congress.



In 1906, the Congress was split into two.. The group led by Tilak and
supported by Lala Lajpat Rai and Bepin Bihari Pal was known as the
extremist group, while the loyalists were called the moderates.
Gradually, the extremists, with the help of mass support, gained
popularity and emerged as the dominant group while the moderates lost
their control over the Congress. So, when the British took Gokhale
into confidence and disclosed their plan to bring loyalist Gandhi to
India and make him the sole leader of Congress, Gokhale found to ray
of hope to regain their hegemony in the Congress. He readily supported
the intrigue and agreed to play a mediator between Gandhi and the
British.



So after one year and nine months he had met Gokhale, Gandhi, after
staying 21 years in South Africa, came to India, via London. He left
Cape Town by S.S. Kinfauns Castle on July 18, 1914, accompanied by his
wife Smt. Kasturva and his German friend Mr. Kalenbuch, and reached
London on August 6. He again sailed from London on December 19, 1914,
for India and landed Bombay on January 9, 1915. Thus he stayed nearly
5 months in England on his way back to India. After landing at the
Mumbai port, he, as the most important British loyalist, wrote a
letter to the Governor of Bombay Presidency expressing his promise
that he would always abide by his instructions. Many believe that he
went to London to receive the parting instruction from his British
master.



During his brief stay in London, Gandhi, the apostle of nonviolence,
deplored Madanlal Dhingra and other revolutionaries to please the
British, declared them anarchists and said, “Is killing honourable? Is
the dagger of an assassin a fit precursor of an honourable death?” He
also said that he wanted to purge India of the atmosphere of suspicion
on either side and there was no reason for anarchism in India.



The reader should recall the First World War began in Europe on 28
June 1914, and Gandhi, immediately after reaching India, started to
recruit Indian soldiers for the British army, simply to express his
loyalty to the British Empire. It is important to note that, Gandhi,
the apostle of nonviolence, who claimed to have discover a weapon on
nonviolence to end violence in the world, supported war and according
to his promise to the British master, recruited Indians to be
sacrificed in the violence of the war. He used to travel about 20
miles a day and addressed meetings at Nadiad, Kathlal, Karamsad,
Godhra, Jambusar, Vadlhal and other places for recruitment, under the
presidentship of the Commisionar Pratt. People used to ask him, “You
are a prophet of nonviolence, how can you ask us to take up arms? What
good has the British Government done for India to desrve our
cooperation?” But Gandhi had to keep mum. It was not possible for him
to say that he was doing all these things as the most loyal slave of
the British crown. It should be mentioned here that the staunch
followers of Gandhi, even today, refuse to acknowledge this glaring
example of hypocricy of Gandhi.



He then took up the other important task to please his British master
and that was disarming the revolutionaries of India. It has been said
earlier that at that time violent freedom struggle was going on in
Bengal, Punjab, Maharastra and elsewhere and the patriots of Bengal
were playing the leading role in this direction under the leadership
of Sri Aurobinda Ghosh, Barin Ghosh, Jatin Das, Surya Sen and others.
The British Government was terribly afraid of the revolutionaries of
Bengal. So gandhi visited Bengal to extuinguish the fire of violent
freedom struggle with his false creed of nonviolence.



Such an effort was also necessary to for Gandhi, most loyal
stooge of the British, to make India safe for the British Empire, when
it was in its difficult hour like World War-I. So, as the first step,
he went to Bengal and delivered the first blow against Indian
Revolutionaries at a meeting of Bengal youth. Later on, on April 24,
1915, in a meeting organized by the Madras Bar Association, Gandhi
proudly declared, “It gives me the greatest pleasure this evening at
this very great and important gathering to re-declare my loyalty to
the British Empire and my loyalty is based upon very selfish grounds.
As a passive resister I discovered that I could not have that free
scope which I had under the British Empire … and I discovered that
the British Empire has certain ideals with which I have fallen in
love.”

That time onward, Gandhi renewed his effort of deploring
the revolutionaries of this country to please the British. He asked
the youths of Bengal and of other provinces to give up violence. On
April 27, 1915, he asked the students of Madras to give up political
assassination, political dacoities and conquer the conquerors not by
shedding blood but by sheer force of spiritual predominance. He
deplored Khudiram, Madanlal Dhingra, condemned Savarkar for supporting
Dhingra and deplored other revolutionaries like Biplabi Rashbehari
Bose. It should be mentioned that even an Englishman W S Blunt praised
Dhinra and described him a great patriot (My Diary, Part-II, pp-288).
On the contrary, Gandhi condemned violence and said that it was an
evil path and the revolutionaries were anarchists. At that time,
Lokamanya Tilak was arrested in Mumbai because he wrote three articles
in the Kesari supporting Khudiram’s bomb explosion at Muzaffarpur, and
was sentenced on July 22, 1908, to six years’ transportation. Gandhi
deplored Tilak on the charge of inciting Indians against British rule.



Gandhi strongly believed that India’s connection with the British was
a blessing and used to say that “it would be a calamity to break that
connection between the British people and the people of India.” Hence
he used to say, “Satyagraha is not to hurt British and should never
hurt the British.” He also assured the British that he would never
adopt violent means against the British Empire and protection of
British Raj was necessary for the interest of Swaraj. It has been
mentioned earlier that Gandhi never fought for India’s freedom. On the
contrary, he used to say that there was no need to end British rule in
India and the Demand of INDEPENDENCE was DENIAL GOD. Later, he
himself confessed that he did not work for India’s independence.



It has been pointed out earlier that he reproached the leaders like
Subhash Chandra Bose and others because they were in favour of
demanding independence. He also blamed C F Andrews for demanding
complete independence. It is needless to say that all such utterances
of Gandhi made the British colonialists extremely pleased. This made
Sir Samuel Hoare, the Viscount of Templewood to comment that Gandhi
was one of the best friends of the British. But later on in 1930,
Gandhi was compelled to support the independence proposal simply to
gain control over the Congress. Many believe that while in London on
his way back to India, he promised that he will always inform the
Viceroy in advance what he is going to do as his next step and take
prior permission from him. There is no doubt that he kept the word of
his British master up to his last breath.

Has Gandhi's Agenda Been Defeated?.......Public Platform 2 !

HAVE YOUR SAY

>> If Muslims can indeed change and become liberal, come back to us when that incredible event has happened.

Well, all human beings, at a basic level are fundamentally the same, regardless of race, religion, caste etc. There are conditions/circumstances, individual initiatives, personal moral decisions/choices etc that are different. I believe that any person regardless of race/religion/caste/class etc can be good, develop themselves, become competent/intelligent etc.

>> Anyone can be excused on the basis of your principle that they can change in the future....Even Hitler could have, given enough time. We are not interested in that. What matters is dealing with the Muslim goondas and Hitlers of today.

I never said that Muslim goondas should not be dealt with. All I said is that no person of any religion/caste/race/class etc can be assume to be a Goonda solely on the grounds of religion/caste/race/class etc. A very simple point. I do not know why some people are jumping up and down on this.

>> If a fellow breaks into your house and comes to kill you you won't defend yourself. You will just say: "I am sure you will become a decent chap in the future. You can change."

No. I will do all I can to discharge my duty of defending my family and myself, even if it needs use of force.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Oct 04, 2009 11:53 PM
179

Lalit:

I concur with your conjectures on R, VC3, K and faruqi.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 04, 2009 11:45 PM
178

dr s

i suspect reddy, chutterjee of being faruki clones.

they are not hindus, despite haveing hindu names.

both are fanatic muslims.

i doubt that they live in india.

faruki is a mysterious character- kumar, chutterjee
and kumar are working togather with him.

some may be based in usa- use a safe indian forum for their feelings of hate.their strident defence of pakistan is a bit strange.perhaps thats natural for
some indian muslims.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 04, 2009 11:36 PM
177

STORM:>>"But perhaps Gandhi was fortunate that he had a opponent like British"

right. the brits broke down the islamic suppression on the hindus, especially the intellectual B-types. english schools, started for producing more clerks for their empire, ended up producing lawyers and philosophers of the same competance as the britts themselves, bec english is only gr-grand-kid of sans! new hindu india talked the brits out of india, after britts' own weakening after the world-war strains. urdu-ite moslems could only watch the process. non-partition might have brought moslems also into the engl-educ mode, but the departing brits wreaked vengeance on india by separating the moslems into separate state. preferred absorption of moslems into england has worsened their own situation!.

post-bangla war, there could have been convergence, in the subcontinent, but oil-price rise made pak-ISI an agent of saudi-caliphate only. the rise of china in association with the catho-papacy has strengthened the conversionist forces of the mao-naxals on the east, also.

Sonia being forced to choose man-mohan as her man has only been a god-forced blessing-favour for india's good. We have only to count on God for further progress on the right lines, also, in spite of the bad sort of polits that are getting elected each time.
grandmas praying in temples is really running india ahead!.

>>"Had he been fought against a enemy like increasingly assertive and authoritarian state like China or stone age, tribal forces like Taliban or Saudi Arabia, I seriously doubt he could have achieved the same goal with his non-violence weapon".

yes, satyaaagraha was satya-naarayaNa-aagraha with Gandhi. circumstances and God-bless brought success for him and freedom for india. perhaps, india has been paying the price for not forcing the leadership on gandhi himself, of undivided india, instead of the division between nehru and jinnah. painful hindsight, I suppose.

while europe and americas are developing under truely entreprenuerial capitalism, correcting some marketing mistakes also, as they occur, the princely-family-capitalism of the saudis mainly oil-based, the communist-party-capitalism of the chinese riding on the poverty of excluded/exploited three-fourth of the country and the military-ISI-terrorist-capitalism of pakisthan based on saudi money, routed thro usa, and chinese back-up for them, all three, will all find themselves weakening slowly, in the next decade, with the world going seriously for urgent eco-economics, given the warnings by the increasing frequency of storms and quakes.

In modern 'system theory', the 'state eqn' of a system, elec, mech, or economic, really defines the rate of change of state as a linear or nonlinear fn of the state-vector and the time. the 'being' and the 'becoming' are both important variables determining the future state-trajectory. a moderate upward rate of growth on sound savings and widespread wealth-disposals are good points on which india can count for steady and stable progress, despite swirling waters. the saudi-pak-chinese oppo are flying high over shaky grounds. their hopes for destroying india may be only day-dreams. They may end up seeking india's help in the end. Americans are right in making the nucl-power deal with india.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 04, 2009 11:24 PM
176

reddy

the pope is not a sanghi or a nazi- his opinion counts.

1 pakistani,s complain bitterly about not getting a visa-
2 neither are they welcome in other countries.
3 saudi arabia cuts of their heads for crimes of all kinds

read the dawn of today and read what pakistani writers
think of their country- its down hill-

himachal, uttarkhand,ladakh,sikkim, are the most peaceful states in india, because the people are mostly
hindus.

m.j.akbar writes that muslims are a sick limb in india.

cowasjee a famous pakistani journalist writes.

95 percent are ignorant, violent and bigoted. there is no chance of a democracy here.

exmuslims in america are frequently on tv criticiseing
islam and muslims.

read any western paper and read the news about india and pakistan- india has some good news. all
news from pakistan is bad news.

some muslims in india will be suspect because of their own behaviour and also that of the pakitanis.you caN
read mfr,s views.

muslims have expelled hindus from kashmir, it is legit if hindus did the same to them in an another state.
this is fair-

your asking for me to be tried for treason is hillarious. if any thing you are more liable to be
picked up, and shot,lieing flat on your back, stareing at the sky. you just dont know your position in society, here or else where.

despite all india is a largely hindu country, and has
a ancient history. you better learn to respect this or head for pakistan- this type of bragging under a assumed name will not last for ever.

terrorists and fanatics like you get picked up all over the world. dont push your luck.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 04, 2009 10:48 PM
175

the dalit sikhs were never part of the khalistan movement and the recent fights among dera and conservative sikhs show how the latest religion is also unable to contain/control divisions based on birth
ganapathi
chennai, India
Oct 04, 2009 10:46 PM
174

gayathri---"the pope himself has stated that islam was a intolerant religion,"

Yup ... that should seal the fate of Islam. Your
simplistic views and even more simplistic conclusions
are worth examining from an academic point of view.
The human brain in some individuals dont evolve after a point.


--"pakistani,s now at the highest level now find it
nearly impossible to get a visa for britain.. "

And this fact is enough to prove what a dastardly
nation Pakistan has become.



--"despite problems they are a unified nation, not troubled as the devided nation of hindusthan. "

But isnt this what you wanted all along ? A divided
Hindustan with Hindu majority States (mostly in the
North) having their own country ? These are your
views and ofcourse you will deny it. You are an
anti-national. You should be arrested and tried for
treason. So why do you insist on hounding Indian
Muslims who love India enough to live here, despite ll the hatred spewed by bigotted Hindu fuckheads ?


--"we keep on debateing with the likes of faruki and
kumar. it matters little how sensible and realistic
our comments are."

If you had half the erudition, education and articulation of Kumar or Anwar
this forum would be a far more interesting place to inhabit. Instead, its fun
to drop by here and skewer fundamentalist dickwads.
Reddy
Bangalore, India
Oct 04, 2009 10:42 PM
173

there r thousand differences between a tamilian muslim and a kashmiri muslim and even a moplah muslim.the same with hindus where in south u marry ur uncle/uncles daughter while in north its blasphemy. rice eating makes a person weak according to a jat but the thambi thinks the opposite.its very rare for a bohra muslim to marry a tamilian muslim and the same with hindus.i have moved with kashmiri muslims and casteism is rampant among them. my friend was from a family of barbers and he says that his family is looked down upon by the rajput and syed muslims.the tribal gujjars (the girl who shot a militant few days back belongs to them)are never considered muslims by the pak establishment and muslims.the muslims in leh ladakh are very different(physically and ideologically) and are not part of any militant group.since dausa was declared a tribal seat the gujjars put up a kashmiri gujjar muslim as candidate and he secured almost 3 lakh votes after a meena independent candidate and bjp/congress pushed to 3rd and fourth.
ganapathi
chennai, India
Oct 04, 2009 10:29 PM
172

sanjay khan is the father in law of hrithik.
no group is monolithic.most of the kurds genuinely hate iraqi sunni and shias of iran too hate the sunnis.the mohajirs are illtreated in pakistan and their leader openly says that partition was a mistake(reply to people who say that no one in pak feels partition is bad).most of the marathis hate biharis and the same with kannadigas and tamilians.very few kannadigas feel tamilnadu deserves cauvery water and viceversa with tamils.its comical to paint hindus as aggreived and muslims aggressors.jats care two hoots for laws and dont hesitate to kill their own daughters and sisters if they fall in love with fellow hindus and the same with many hindu communities.what is the feeling of a rajput about a paswan/kurmi/mahar.the hatred a garhwali as for nepali(though gorkhas have stayed in dehradun for centuries)has to be seen to be beleived.the hatred for yadav and obcs led to the birth of new state uttarkhand.people in vidharbha resent maratha domination and want separate statehood.the hatred between devar dalits,vanniar dalits etc in tamilnadu r well known.
ganapathi
chennai, India
Oct 04, 2009 09:46 PM
171

muslim for reform

yours is a masterly account of the situation of india.

gandhi as the father of the nation tried his very best to keep the joint hindu muslim nation togather. after
all the muslims were hindu converts, and he believed
that their religion should not effect their liveing togather.

nehru too tried to wipe out the differences, but he
was a master at decieveing himself.

he was wrong about the reality of islam which was in resurgance in india, and later on all over the world
" they are like us only" is the childish and naive response of people like rajinder puri, vinod mehta, and kuldip nayar". they are not.they keep on saying so and we will not believe them.

muslim communities all over the world have devided the
countries they shared with others. serbia, lebenon,
cyprus have separated after bloody conflicts- muslims
have mishandled ,brutalised their minorities, and finally expelled them.

the indian media has decieved the people of their country . they never ever shows such bloody events on tv screens, or writes about them in newspapers. the bloody genocide in darfur was ignored and hidden from indian viewers even though the head of the united nations mission was a indian.they ignored it even after american blacks like condoleeza rice, jesse jackson drew attention to this
tragedy.

when i wrote about this ,faruki accused me of writeing this solely for the purpose of discredeting muslims,
and not because i was moved by the pitiable situation
of the poor,blacks in darfur.ssema mustafa, naqvi both indian muslims travelled to khartoum and dismissed the whole situation as a minor misunderstanding- 300,000
people killed, and 2.5 million driven away from their homes, and that was their reaction.

no one can build a multireligious society with people who are so biased and bigoted. the amazeing is that whilst they regard themselves as a foreign nation,
tied by blood bonds to the arab ummah, they feel that
the hindu majority should turn a blind eye to all this and help them in all possible ways.

even protests by hindus at this situation are unacceptable.they who are themselves the most bigoted
and fanatics accuse the others of this.this is true not only of india but across the globe.

the fight today world wide ,is between resurgent and
agressive islam and the others. the west is well aware of this and is takeing action to counter this.


they may give aid and speak in honeyed tones to the muslims,but only a fool will fail to understand their anger and frustrations.

people like me do not want confrontation with muslims
or anyone at all. the world is faceing serious problems
and it is not just stupid but criminal for people
on both sides to spend huge amounts on arms.

in fact i am dead against india spending money on fighter aircraft and submarines. i would much rather
spend this on good roads and buses, for cycle paths,
and pavements in cities.

why is pakistan forceing india to do so. why have they
armed themselves to the teeth with money borrowed
and begged from the hated americans.

this if anything shows a total lack of commonsense,
and honour. with regret i note that this has given
a free chit for corrupt govts in india to buy arms,
when it should be provideing welfare to its peoples.

i would like an answer to mfr,s mail and mine from the secularists.. they lack both commonsense ,decency
and honour.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 04, 2009 09:42 PM
170

"" Jinnah ate pork, and married a non-Muslim. So what? ""

And interestingly when his own daughter expressed her desire to marry a non-Muslim a Parsi Jinnah opposed and disowned her before telling her that there are millions of Muslim boys in India and she could choose any one of them.
Storm
Jaipur, India
Oct 04, 2009 09:26 PM
169

GHAI, GANAPATHY:

Spare us this sentimental hogwash about how Muslims are marrying Hindus and all the same etc.

It is NOT true that Muslims are the same.

Some of them may chew pork or marry non-Muslims, but the inflexible orthodoxy of the majority, their fanatical contempt for Hindus and adulation of arabs, remains.

Jinnah ate pork, and married a non-Muslim. So what?

Muslims are Indian in appearance but Arabs in spirit.

Simple.

I respect them. Their arabism is not an excuse for hating them. I know they are dangerously intolerant, but the answer is to keep a creful watch on them and be ready for trouble, not to attack them without excuse as the Hindu goondas of Gujarat did.

But above all, no illusions about Muslims. They are what they are: Arabs in India, with a huge grievance against Hindus.

We must be just to them and take good care of ourselves.
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Oct 04, 2009 09:08 PM
168

Ganapathy Babu, good remark.
Shubho Bijoya to you and Boudi and Eid Mubarak.
dip
Dhaka, Bangladesh
Oct 04, 2009 08:55 PM
167

Ganpathy

Sanjay Khan an actor and the maker of Serials Tippu Sultan,Jai Hanuman etc has got a Doctorate in Hindu Philosphy from the Banaras Hindu University .
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Oct 04, 2009 08:49 PM
166

PS to first post:

Old timers like Vinod Mehta,PURI,Kuldip Nayar and other media barons very well know the role played by Indira and Congress in spreading communal divide and using Muslims as an asset in Elections but they all either ignore it or downplay it and only blame right wing hardliner Hindus.Their partisian treatment of Gujrat and Modi is an example .The credit to create the Modi's image larger than life goes to these media Mughals.

It may be Ishrat or Sabrudin or Best Bakery ladies the media blitz unleashed and readily lapped by the Seculars always end up strengthening Modi's position.

With enmies like these who needs friends.
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Oct 04, 2009 08:45 PM
165

mr ghai

we keep on debateing with the likes of faruki and
kumar. it matters little how sensible and realistic
our comments are. they will always raise an objection.
thanks for the comedy gayathri devi
i have relatives/friends from muslims,christians,hindus of many castes and can answer u. there is not much of a difference when it comes to basic human qualities of selfishness/possesiveness/caste religion supremacy etc.whether he is son of a poor seller(irfan pathan) or nawab of pataudi they fall in love with people of other religions.most of the muslim actresses marry hindus and salman khan sister is married to agnihotri brother married to christian and the list goes on. most of the airhostesses from muslim community marry nonmuslims and in co ed colleges like madras christian college,medical colleges,govt engg colleges the number of muslims marrying nonmuslims is no way different from hindus.the philanthropic nature of people is irrespective of religions and there is no increased number in hindus compared to others.
ganapathi
chennai, India
Oct 04, 2009 08:35 PM
164

Kumar:
"Gandhi had human and Indian interests in mind."

That is a good joke. EVer read what Gandhi had to say about blacks?
Ganesan
Nj, USA
Oct 04, 2009 08:32 PM
163

MFR

You have raised many important issues .Your post deserves detailed and considered response.

I will submit in detail on the following :

1.Gandhi did what he could to cool passions of 1946-47 .But his role was over.Time was not on his side.India was entering a new era where Gandhian philosophy had become outdated.World was rapidly changing . Not Gandhian Charkha but the Industrialisation was the need of the hour.Devasted World after the War was rebuilding itself and it was great chance for India to join them.

Nehru understood it but did the basic mistake of antagonising West and tied India to NAM and Communist Block.He should have also tried to carry along West.

India at that time needed wealth and technology form the West also.

Another mistake Nehru did was to support Arabs in their fight with West and Israel.As a good politiician he should have tried to be nonpartisian and friend of all.This would have hastenend the development and rapid industralisation of India.Unfortunately Nehru and Menon policies' kept India weded to poverty for another four and half decades after the Independence.

India was compelled to mortgage its Gold finally.

2. But Nehru had a great christma and was held in awe by the Indians .He was able to subdue Hindu Muslim communalism.Had Lal Bhadur Shashtri lived longer I feel he could have carried forward on communal problem.


2. But Indira was different .She had her own compulsions imposed by the Congress oldies.To retain her power she played every card available to her including communal one .If you were then old enough during her regime you will know what I say.It is during her rule that Communalism reared up again .India was again plunged into Hindu Muslim riots.
The role of Congress itself was and is still quite dubious on this count.It was during her rule that hardliner Hinduism surfaced with no efforts by he rto control it.

Poverty tightened its grip on us .I think first time after Independence deaths due to poverty and hunger re-apperared in India.

(continued Part Two}
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Oct 04, 2009 08:28 PM
162

Puri's article on Gandhi seems to be ignited a fiery debate here.

Despite with all his shortcomings, undoubtedly Gandhi was one of great leader who achieved a great goal for his people.

But perhaps Gandhi was fortunate that he had a opponent like British. Had he been fought against a enemy like increasingly assertive and authoritarian state like China or stone age, tribal forces like Taliban or Saudi Arabia, I seriously doubt he could have achieved the same goal with his non-violence weapon.

In another sense Indians were lucky that British replaced the Islamic dominance in sub continent.

By the way why a Gandhi, Martin Luther or Nelson Mandela did not born in Islam in its 1400 years history, is a interesting thing to notice.
Storm
Jaipur, India
Oct 04, 2009 06:48 PM
161

I_Z:>>"let India develop her Hindu identity"

very difficult, bec hindusthan only operates as many casti-sthans and lingui-sthans, nowadays. besides, there is a virulent pakisthan inside india itself, bigger than pakisthan and bangla-sthan, also. besides, there is a church-isthan growing very rapidly in india under sonia and her crypto-chr raj-ministers and CMs, 'raj'-named-polits in other parties also!, raj thackeray the latest!..

Kailasapati and Guruvayurappan have their hands full really, if they really want to restore hindusthaana as the old 'aarya-varta sapta-sindhu in jambo-dveepa'. it might only happen only if people, in general, here and elsewhere in the world, realize that all devout religs are only aspects of sanaatana-dharma, at the spiritual level. paapist conv, mullaist terror should come down. excessive traditionalism, superioritism among high-caste-minded hindus should also come down.

Time-lord Siva = allah will surely enforce it, I think , in due course of time. if alaka ice-cone lands down as araba-deSa, araabia, r->l [hara = alla]. k-> b, p? partly the alps also? then, kuran = puran, Siva-purana only, perhaps misheard by ravan-nabhi from narada-Gabriel, further muddied by bakaasura [abu baker] types, may be. God alone knows the truth, and also the eventual solution mode, for the problem. may His will be done!
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 04, 2009 06:46 PM
160

Rajinder Puri nurses a long standing fantasy for the re-unification of the nations of our subcontinent. He has written about the same in his earlier postings. Whatever his intentions may be for promoting this idea, there is alas no basis for the same.

The issue of the irreconciliable nationalities of Hindus and Muslims obtaining in India were amply clear to BR Ambedkar even before the Partition who has prophetically described the same in his seminal work 'Pakistan, or the Partition of India'. His clear understanding of the Hindu-Muslim issue is amply vindicated by the events which have happened since then and all the doubts and misgivings are mostly cleared. Puri has only to read this book to clear his understanding of the matter.

The role and positions of Gandhi and Nehru in India’s partition are another story. BR Ambedkar has written his treatise from an academic or a social scientist’s point of view without any vested interest. A social scientist or academic tries to explain the nature of things as he is not charged with any other social or political responsibility in the matter. In contrast, Gandhi and Nehru were political leaders who had a vested interest in the outcome and were in charge of giving birth and presiding over a newly freed (mostly Hindu) nation. Even if they understood the situation fully well, they could not be expected to acknowledge it openly as they were aware of the explosiveness of the matter and the enduring damage to the social fabric and the much needed peace and harmony that such an action would cause. Gandhi tried to do his bit by ignoring and to some extent even condoning the excesses of the communalist Muslims. Nehru, on his part proceeded to whitewash the historical accounts of our ancient land by rewriting history in his ‘Discovery of India’ wherein he reinterpreted the bitter truths of the communal interaction of Hindus and Muslims to make them seem less severe and tolerable and thereby attempting to forge an honourable and a face saving basis for Hindu-Muslim coexistence. The difference between Gandhi on one hand and Nehru/ Patel on the other as evaluated by Puri in the article is superlative, that of a mere degree. Politics is defined as the art of the possible. A greater politician is that whose attempts for greater and more improbable possibilities. Nehru and Patel felt that they reached the limits of possibility in the matter of partition earlier and they accepted fait-accompli of Partition. Gandhi, being the greater politician and social leader, felt it was still possible for the two communities to coexist somehow and did not give up the idea till his death. It is just like the case of the sons of a joint family quarreling to be separated. The sons and others of the family understand the inevitability of separation much earlier, while the parents (or in this case, the father of the nation) tries until the last to maintain the unity of the family.

Thus there is no point for the author to dream of such fantasies. The issue of separate Muslim nationhood is not an event caused by the relatively small time political wrangling between Nehru and Jinnah or the Muslim League and the Congress but is rooted in the centuries old history of Islam and the Muslim ummah and it will remain that way as long as the rigidity and unalterability of the present Islamic dogma remain in place.
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Oct 04, 2009 06:46 PM
159

Rajinder Puri nurses a long standing fantasy for the re-unification of the nations of our subcontinent. He has written about the same in his earlier postings. Whatever his intentions may be for promoting this idea, there is alas no basis for the same.

The issue of the irreconciliable nationalities of Hindus and Muslims obtaining in India were amply clear to BR Ambedkar even before the Partition who has prophetically described the same in his seminal work 'Pakistan, or the Partition of India'. His clear understanding of the Hindu-Muslim issue is amply vindicated by the events which have happened since then and all the doubts and misgivings are mostly cleared. Puri has only to read this book to clear his understanding of the matter.

The role and positions of Gandhi and Nehru in India’s partition are another story. BR Ambedkar has written his treatise from an academic or a social scientist’s point of view without any vested interest. A social scientist or academic tries to explain the nature of things as he is not charged with any other social or political responsibility in the matter. In contrast, Gandhi and Nehru were political leaders who had a vested interest in the outcome and were in charge of giving birth and presiding over a newly freed (mostly Hindu) nation. Even if they understood the situation fully well, they could not be expected to acknowledge it openly as they were aware of the explosiveness of the matter and the enduring damage to the social fabric and the much needed peace and harmony that such an action would cause. Gandhi tried to do his bit by ignoring and to some extent even condoning the excesses of the communalist Muslims. Nehru, on his part proceeded to whitewash the historical accounts of our ancient land by rewriting history in his ‘Discovery of India’ wherein he reinterpreted the bitter truths of the communal interaction of Hindus and Muslims to make them seem less severe and tolerable and thereby attempting to forge an honourable and a face saving basis for Hindu-Muslim coexistence. The difference between Gandhi on one hand and Nehru/ Patel on the other as evaluated by Puri in the article is superlative, that of a mere degree. Politics is defined as the art of the possible. A greater politician is that whose attempts for greater and more improbable possibilities. Nehru and Patel felt that they reached the limits of possibility in the matter of partition earlier and they accepted fait-accompli of Partition. Gandhi, being the greater politician and social leader, felt it was still possible for the two communities to coexist somehow and did not give up the idea till his death. It is just like the case of the sons of a joint family quarreling to be separated. The sons and others of the family understand the inevitability of separation much earlier, while the parents (or in this case, the father of the nation) tries until the last to maintain the unity of the family.

Thus there is no point for the author to dream of such fantasies. The issue of separate Muslim nationhood is not an event caused by the relatively small time political wrangling between Nehru and Jinnah or the Muslim League and the Congress but is rooted in the centuries old history of Islam and the Muslim ummah and it will remain that way as long as the rigidity and unalterability of the present Islamic dogma remain in place.
Muslim for Reform
Nashik, India
Oct 04, 2009 06:37 PM
158

iqbal z

you are absolutely right.

i read pakistani new papers, and never have i read
any one who regrets the partition,

bangladeshis despite the genocide in 1971 are more
friendly towards pakistan then india.

i remember on the ali brothers saying to gandhi-
mr gandhi i know you are a nice person, but i still
prefer a muslim thief to you. i am obliged to do so
because of my religion.

i can not fathom why nonmuslims are so facinated by
muslims, despite being rejected by them.

these fake secularists should visit pakistan for say
a few months- maybe this will cure them of their
fascination.

this said many pakistani,s can be very hospitable to
visitors, but this does not change the over all picture. it is a pity but its true.i stand for friendly relations with pakistan, trade and tourism.
i think the indian govt is ready for this, but it has
not happened-the pakistani,s are not keen on this.
i do not read pakistani,s suggesting such friendly
relations with india or the west.

i am willing to be friendly with pakistani,s as well.
and sincere if they are nice people, but i would not
have many expectations from the country at large.
we have had 60 years of bad relations- we have fought several wars,faced terrorism, faced lies and denials.
this shows how futile it is to have any illusions
about pakistani,s.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 04, 2009 06:16 PM
157

kumar

no european secular democratic country is in agreement with you. i live in europe and most danes have a very
negative views of islam and muslims.

so do britts. after the july 2005 bombings tony blair
said- the rules of the game have changed.even the elite pakistani,s can not get a visa to visit britain.

british readers express their anger in books,papers
and tv- you are fast asleep with your eyes,and ears
closed.

and stop your lies. i support equal rights for all
includeing muslims. it is muslims who do not give equal
rights to nonmuslims.christians are getting killed
in pakistan. you maintain a calm silence.

dawn has a article about the pope asking zardari to respect christians-

you need a mental check-so obsessed are you that you can not understand what your opponents think.

you could read "aatish taseers book stranger in history. you seem to be simply ignorant of the world
outside.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 04, 2009 05:17 PM
156

Gayatri:

The simple truth is, when Islam invaded India, it formed a new nationality. That eventually became the Muslim nations of Pakistan and Bangladesh. India remained a Hindu nation.

In the future, Pakistan and Bangladesh will become even more alienated from Hinduism and India will emphasise Hinduism ever more.

I have met many Pakistanis and Bangladeshis and discussed the Partition. Not one of them had even the remotest desire to have their countries reunite with India. They would have considered that a truly mad idea. They are happy to celebrate their strictly Islamic identity and to identify themselves with the Arabs and Iranians.

The fact that many of them like Hindi movies is nothing to the point: so do many Arabs, and even Russians.

Some extremist Pakistanis do want to reunite with India - but these are the guys who want to make the whole Subcontinent a Califate of Islam. The desire has nothing in the least friendly to Hindus about it.

So please put an end to this stale, outdated fantasy. The Pakistanis and the Bangladeshis havbe gone from the Hindus, and are NEVER comong back.

Let them develop their Islamic identity in peace, and let India develop her Hindu identity.

Everybody happy now?
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Oct 04, 2009 05:15 PM
155

KUMAR

'criticism/condemnation of violent extremists' who are they ?
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Oct 04, 2009 05:06 PM
154

KUMAR

If a fellow breaks into your house and comes to kill you you won't defend yourself. You will just say: "I am sure you will become a decent chap in the future. You can change."

Good luck.
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Oct 04, 2009 05:03 PM
153

KUMAR

If Muslims can indeed change and become liberal, come back to us when that incredible event has happened.

Until then we shall treat them as what they demonstrably are today: utterly bigotted and intolerant and violent.

Anyone can be excused on the basis of your principle that they can change in the future....Even Hitler could have, given enough time. We are not interested in that. What matters is dealing with the Muslim goondas and Hitlers of today.
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Oct 04, 2009 04:58 PM
152

Gayatri Devi,

>> i note that you do nothing useful- a real loser. whine whine whine-

You are the one whining at the criticism/condemnation of violent extremists The question is, why are you so scared about the idea of human rights/justice/freedom? If not, what exactly is the problem you have? Why dont you quote one line from me and tell what you disagree with?
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Oct 04, 2009 04:49 PM
151

Gayatri Devi,

>> when facts are against them …

The disagreement is not so much on the facts, but on the view and vision for future of humanity/world.

>> however these same people make no such demands from other muslim countries like saudi arabia or the gulf states

Saudi Arabia is not the context of the discussion. But you are free to raise your objections on Saudi Arabia.

>> you are liveing in your own bubble, and i wonder whether its because you are house bound, or just have a closed mind

You should ask the question to all the secular democratic constitutions/countries of the world (including India), as they are all in agreement with me, in letter and spirit.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Oct 04, 2009 04:46 PM
150

kumar

i have never opposed equal rights for all inhabitants
of a country-i am especially a supporter of womens
right. i do not have a religion, caste or class.

i am just a ordinary danish citizen liveing with very nice danish neighbours.

once years ago i invited a muslim activist to bring some of his friends for lunch,and i would share my
experiences with them .

he did not accept. he spent all his ime writeing critical letters about danish society. he was widely
despised,and left the country. everyone who knew him were happy.

i think you are completely thick headed.you remind me of him. constant whineing in bangalore, which i understand is a fun city.

i note that you do nothing useful- a real loser.

whine whine whine-
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 04, 2009 04:25 PM
149

kumar

i dont dream of ghettoes-

i note their existence-you also wrote about a muslim
locality close to you- do you visit them- do you have
many muslim,hindu friends.

start reading dawn- its journalists have doubts about islamic societies and their own.

you are liveing in your own bubble, and i wonder whether its because you are house bound, or just have
a closed mind.

you may have dreams of the society you want. it is not
shared by most westerners.dont presume to tell them
how to arrange their societies-

you need to make a trip to some other countries, meet
your dream friends- get a check on reality.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 04, 2009 04:25 PM
148

"As if money is required only for war purposes! "

Like Pakistanies are taking Billions from USA as Aid for developement and utilise it to purchase Arms to fight on Indian Front.
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Oct 04, 2009 04:18 PM
147

AK Ghai,

>> Indian intersts were served by financing Pakistan's Kashmir War !!!

As if money is required only for war purposes! But I was referring to is pre-partition India. Gandhi lived almost all his life in that India
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Oct 04, 2009 04:13 PM
146

Gayatri Devi,

>> why do people insist on multicultural societies in liberal countries.what good does it to society in general. nothing at all.

That depends on your view of humanity and the future destiny for humanity/world that you like to see. I like to see a future of humanity where various races, castes, religions etc live in dignity with their rights/justice/freedom asserted and with people socially-educationally-economically empowered and developed. You dream of a world of ghettos, divided by race, religion, caste, class etc. That’s the basic difference.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Oct 04, 2009 04:03 PM
145

Lalit ji

Thanks .
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Oct 04, 2009 03:59 PM
144

"Gandhi had human and Indian interests in mind. "

Indian intersts were served by financing Pakistan's Kashmir War !!!
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Oct 04, 2009 03:57 PM
143

Gayatri Devi,

>> these moral exhortations by kumar appear absolutely hypocritical- what is his purpose other then place blame on sanghis-as a proxy for the hindu community.

Thats like saying that the war on terror is a war on Muslims/Islam.

>> i detest such people

You detest the idea of asserting the right/justice/freedom of people. If not, you will have no problem with anything that I say.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Oct 04, 2009 03:49 PM
142

mr ghai

we keep on debateing with the likes of faruki and
kumar. it matters little how sensible and realistic
our comments are. they will always raise an objection.

when facts are against them, they turn to moral
exhortations- allways to hindus,never to the other side. this is followed by abuse,insults.

moreover they reject the views of exmuslims who at great danger to themselves have taken a stand against islam. anyone however respected in society is instantly damned if he or she raise views against these brain dead fake secularists. when he pope said something critical,faruki immediately branded him as a ex nazi.

this is what nehru and patel must have realised.there
was no percentage in pursueing the dream of an indian
nation when 90 percent of muslims supported the 2 nation theory, and fought for a separate state useing
enormous violence and killings.

people like faruki thrive or survive in forums like
this. they also submit their views in the international
media as well. their views are totally opposed to the britts, for eg in papers like the "independent" or the "telegraph" - their mindset is absolutely opposed
to the views of the host nations-

such a situation is not good. why do people insist on multicultural societies in liberal countries.what
good does it to society in general. nothing at all.

however it does provide a fig leaf for muslim immigrants, in that it provides a near god like
reason for their presence in other societies.

the host nations must accept these people, or face charges of racism,bigotry.

however these same people make no such demands from other muslim countries like saudi arabia or the gulf states-you can read about this yourself.

best regards
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 04, 2009 03:12 PM
141

faruki

you have chosen to live your political life in the protected environment of this forum, despite the difference you have with all except -

kumar,reddy and chatterjee.

birds of the same feather flock togather.

do you write in any other forum. i would like to know,
because i am through corresponding with you.

we have different views, but you have always got some
fake moral values which you want your adverseries to accept. very wisely you do not demand these from
muslims who think otherwise-

i have come to the conclusion that islam and muslims
are in a cul de sac. you should discuss issues
which concern you,by yourselves. as you admit muslims
are sagging behind by a hundred years-

a sick limb as m.j.akbar says and you accept this view
as being true..

you can relate to the modern world,exchange views with
it only after you progressed from your present status.
it will take decades. obama has accepted this just
after a few months of his presidency. coexistence with
muslim countries, but no desire of being close to them.
obama had a muslim father.

it would be pointless for saudis, sudanese, libyans,
pakistani,s to sit and debate with people from american, western or eastern societies. your values
are far removed. all discources will be pointless.

the debates in this forum have proved this. we do not
share common values- dr s positively hates some of you.
people like mr ghai,sandy and myself feel that we are better off liveing apart as pakistan and india.

jinnah was right. pakistani,s are now free of debateing
issues like liberalism and secularism. they have a firm
anchor in islam, the koran, hadiths . despite problems
they are a unified nation, not troubled as the devided
nation of hindusthan.

we in india are in a state like that of hamlet the
prince of denmark- allways faceing problems of a very
confused,disturbed multireligious society, where each
community wants to emphasis its own culture.

frankly i have realised that when push come to shove
most minority community have their own religious
and civil interests to defend. i do not feel that they
are fellow indians in a real sense.

the same goes for most muslim immigrants- after several generations they still remain
pakistani,s or bangladeshi,s in britain,or in denmark.

you reject reality because it is the inconvenient truth. you are obsessed with promoteing a multireligious society in india-not in pakistan-
because it serves the interests of muslims. i do not
read you sincerely advanceing the well fare of nonmuslims in pakistan,or even that of muslim women
in india.

conclusion- ours is a futile debate-like the myth
of sysiphus.

at times when i am in delhi i have thought of opening a feeding centre where poor people could get a really good lunch a few times a month- a centre where children of all communities could take a bath, wind down, watch tv or do some thing they like.

these moral exhortations by kumar appear absolutely hypocritical- what is his purpose other then place
blame on sanghis-as a proxy for the hindu community.

what good have people like him done for any one,except
for this absurd moral lectureing.

i detest such people- and to hell if you call me a bigot.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 04, 2009 02:31 PM
140

"Putting it as "Muslims interests" and "Hindu interests" reflects your mindset and not of Gandhi"

Start reading recent History of India .There are n- numbers of books available .Ganhi had many many qualities and some weaknesses too.
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Oct 04, 2009 02:30 PM
139

Gayatri Devi,

>> unwillingness to accept essential difference between various communities

It is you who have to accept that while there are differences among various nations, races, castes etc as the 'current situation', it need to be permanent state of affairs in the future (or the past for that matter - the church in medieval times felt that it is ok to kill people for opposing religion, but they changed, didn’t they. Others can change and have changed likewise).

>> muslims in pakistan are convinced that the 2 nation theory is right

So did many Hindus, including many in this forum. But that was a solution for a certain prevailing situation. But the fact remains that both Indians and Pakistanis are human beings. Even two brothers born of the same mother may separate, due to some circumstances etc.

>> that is why they have rejected their hindu past

The fact that a person is a Muslim and chose to be a Muslim means that they do not believe in some hindu beliefs. What is your point?

>> the pope himself has stated that islam was a intolerant religion, and entirely faith based and irrational.

Just as many people consider Christianity likewise. That is a different issue/topic altogether. I may say that Christianity is irrational and yet assert the human rights/justice/freedom of all people including Christians.

>> people like me accept the way things are. that is my starting point.

I also see the things the way they are, but see what needs to be corrected/improved

>> i believe very firmly that people may not be good or bad, but that they are different.

I believe that many people are good and some fall short more than others. But everyone can change/improve/develop etc.


>> jinnah and gandhi presented two views, and muslims chose those made by jinnah. now i ask you- is this reality or bigotry to say so.

It is a reality to say that most Muslims chose Jinnah. But it is bigotry to say that Muslims (or for that matter people of any race, caste etc) cannot change and will for ever remain backward, bad etc. It would be even worse to violate the rights/justice/dignity etc of innocents based on a theory that people of a particular religion, race etc are different/inferior etc.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Oct 04, 2009 02:15 PM
138

Gatatri/Lalit,

>> unwillingness to accept essential difference between various communities.

If such difference is the only ware you have to peddle, you may as well fold and spend your time doing something more useful. You have become a repetitious bore.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 04, 2009 02:06 PM
137

reddy

i agree with you on prostitution.

regarding killing of gandhi- he was killed by a hindu under very troubled times. i think he had come to the end of his role. his dream of one india,and one nation
was shattered,

regarding killings of leaders,note the numbers of
pakistani who had a bad ending-

liaqat ali khan- killed
iskander mirza exiled
ayub khan- dismissed in a coup
mujib ur rehman imprisoned
butto hanged
zia ul haq ??
nawaz sharif imprisoned for years
benazir bhutto killed in a terror attack
musharff faceing impeachment
zardari ???

its a fine record.

that of afghanistan is not better.

sadamm hussain used to shoot people in meetings.
he killed both soninlaws--

is that enough.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 04, 2009 01:59 PM
136

AK Ghai,

>> Watching Muslims interests was the single point agenda of Gandhi .He had no sympathies for Hindu refugees

Gandhi had human and Indian interests in mind. Putting it as "Muslims interests" and "Hindu interests" reflects your mindset and not of Gandhi. He appealed to all people to renounce communal violence/hatred etc and to show love/respect to fellow human beings. No where did he say that it is ok for one side to kill the other side etc (as is made to be by some people, including you)

>> If not Godse some other angred person would have done the deed.

True, there is no shortage of communal and religious violent extremists, for whom the word ‘humanity’ means nothing and the word is not there in their dictionary.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Oct 04, 2009 01:49 PM
135

faruki and kumar

smart retorts are just smart retorts, refecting an
unwillingness to accept essential difference between
various communities.

that is what v.s.naipaul and the young writer aatish
taseer have said in their books, and what mr mohammed
ali jinnah said, as justification for the partition
of india. muslims in pakistan are convinced that the
2 nation theory is right, and that is why they have
rejected their hindu past, and dream of being a central
asian nation. on the other hand it is secular hindu,s , who despite knowing this view, and after being hated and attacked by pakistani terrorists keep on dreaming of one people and one nation.

i have the views of some pakistani journalists and they affirm my views to be correct. what more can one present as evidence.

talking of bigotry ,you are the bigots,who have chosen a convenient stand ,and are now denying this inconvenient truth. the pope himself has stated that islam was a intolerant religion, and entirely
faith based and irrational. we see this in the affairs
of pakistan and afghanistan etc.

india can not change its situation- its various communities even if they dislike each other can not
find alternatives. however the truth being that those muslims in india who want to live by different laws would be better off liveing on their own.

the essentials of a good working multicultural society
is that most people have common values which unite,and few which devide. european nations after decades of
liveing togather with foreigners have decided. they
find big differences between themselves and muslim immigrants.

haveing realised this most countries have ministeries
of integration with a special task of educateing
muslim immigrants. however they have now also made laws
to stop further muslim immigration.

pakistani,s now at the highest level now find it nearly
impossible to get a visa for britain.. the visa office for pakistani,s has been moved to dubai-

i believe very firmly that people may not be good or bad, but that they are different. this is the way muslim countries feel. most of them have from algeria
to bangladesh expelled nonmuslims, and made life very
difficult for the others.to deny this essential truth
is bigotry.

after all nehru and gandhi accepted this in 1947.however they decided to keep pretending that muslims and hindus were one people. this was not true in 1947, and its not true for pakistani,s today.

to deny truth and reality is not being liberal ,but just stupid. people like me accept the way things are.
that is my starting point.

accept the world as it is, and not what you want it to be.

europeans being educated and rational have accepted the reality on the ground. they experimented with
multiculturalism, but are now shocked at the way things
have gone wrong. the liberal politicians are getting voted out of power, and societies are becomeing more devided, with all communities getting to be more intolerant.

instead of demanding me to change my mind by all kinds
of moral blackmail, exchange your views with pakistani,s.

ask them what they think of secular societies,and changeing of pakistan from a islamic state to a secular
state. muslims want secular states when in a minority.
they want islamic state when they are a majority.

that was naipauls message, which the people in the
nobel prize committee acknowledged and gave him a nobel prize for literature.since then he was knighted, and so was salman rushdie.

lets cool it- jinnah and gandhi never agreed. jinnah
won and was named qaid e azam. gandhi was shot by a
angry hindu for not standing up for his community.

this is the simple truth. jinnah and gandhi presented
two views, and muslims chose those made by jinnah.

now i ask you- is this reality or bigotry to say so.

anyway i am out of this debate. one can not convince
peoples whose mind is made up, and who have no intention of changeing it. the two sopranos should now
ask pakistani,s what they think of multicultural
societies, and are they now prepared to take back the millions of nonmuslims they have mishandled and
expelled.

the records of all bjp states is far better then that of pakistan and afghanistan.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 04, 2009 12:54 PM
134

Gayatri Devi,

>> you pretend that pakistani,s and indians are similr in character

I believe that all people in the world regardless of race, nationality, caste etc have similar basic human character, but the current conditions are different groups, based on various conditions/circumstances are different. Those who are backward or on the wrong side etc can be corrected and their conditions improved.

>> i dont suppose you have read v.s.naipauls "anongst the believers" aatish taseer "stranger to history", books by ayan hirsi ali,views of Tasleema Nasreen, Salman Rushdie.

I am familiar with their views. None of them would support violation of rights/justice of innocent people merely based on race, caste, religion etc. In fact they are speaking out against it, as see it happening in Islamic society, much of which I agree.

>> You have gone around in your usual way, by not answering a direct question. I asked you to name one country you admire, and there was no answer.

I told you what kind of society I admire. Such societies exist in many countries. It is true that the societies I mentioned are more in some countries than other, but that is just the 'current condition' and those lagging behind can improve as well. I admire almost all secular democratic nations for their repeated assertion of human rights/justice/freedom in principle (even though they sometimes fail in actual implementation etc).

>> you are scared to comment on the mindset of many muslims

Tell which mindset I am scared to comment on. In reply to Mr. Badhukwala’s article, I asked him to look at issues beyond 2002 riots and to contemplate on why it is so easy to provoke a "muslim mob" into violence.

>> what exactly is your motive in hideing from ground realities.

I am not hiding from any realities. The reality that you are ignorant of is that all human beings have rights and are entitled for justice/freedom etc. And all people of all races, castes, nationalities can develop, improve etc. And your problem is also that you cannot stand the rightful condemnation of religious violence, if that is directed towards hindu extremist violence.

>> i end my exchange of views with you

You are free to do so anytime.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Oct 04, 2009 12:41 PM
133

gayathri-devi aka benito to Kumar---"I noted this from the people you admire and the books you read. "

Kumar ... i suggest you read frederick forsythe and mario puzo, and make attempts to admire benito mussolini and hitler. This will level the playing field and you will finally arrive on the high intellectual plateau inhabited by the resident sex-change guru.
Reddy
Bangalore, India
Oct 04, 2009 12:33 PM
132

--"If not Godse some other angred person would have done the deed."

I agree ... judging by the deranged hindutva fundamentalists who infest these forums, it was only a question of time before Hindu fundamentalism would have 'done the deed'. And these very fundamentalist fuckheads have the gall to use the concept of Hindu tolerance as a protective sheath ... like a condom.
Reddy
Bangalore, India
Oct 04, 2009 11:01 AM
131

Gayatri,

>> are muslims in india liberal...

Some are liberal, some conservative, and some are as bigotted as you.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 04, 2009 10:46 AM
130

Seshadri,

>>>>"Your glee could hardly be hidden"
>> please stop posting retort replies.

These are the truths, not retorts. You did write several post applauding the deaths of YSR and Karkare. Now perhaps you do not want that mentioned!

>> perhaps, the mk-rajesh-types might ask for caste-cum-ethnicity-based reservations, on nobel awards also.
then the Bs of south india may be kept out for another century.

The question was whether generations of enriched environments and higher expectations conduce to achievements, or is it due to inherited genes.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 04, 2009 10:40 AM
129

"et Godse was not apprehended. Was he manipulated as, "

Gandhi had angered many Hindus specially Refugees from the West Pakistan and East Pakistan . Watching Muslims interests was the single point agenda of Gandhi .He had no sympathies for Hindu refugees who had lost their livelihood,homes,property,businesses and their near and dear ones were butchered by the Paki hordes.

If not Godse some other angred person would have done the deed.
a k ghai
mumbai, India
Oct 04, 2009 10:23 AM
128

The first and foremost attribute of leadership is clarity of vision, followed by a roadmap and execution plan to make that vision reality.The angry protests of gandhi fans aside,the fact is that gandhi's vision or lack of it was based on an utopian thought - so far fetched from reality and impractical that it is not worth the paper it was written on.gandhi worshippers would do well to set aside some time to read his ramblings - boggles the mind that such a chap is actually venerated.Present day India is far from perfect and can even be called a functional anarchy - however we are certainly better off compared to what might have been had m.k.gandhi perchance taken over the leadership reins of India.
Shiv Adiseshan
Chennai, India
Oct 04, 2009 10:18 AM
127

>>>>Either you are completely ignorant or pretend to be one . I noted this from the people you admire and the books you read>>>

>>>>Hinduism is flexible and dynamic. Hinduism is not under trial or under watch, or a global ideological threat>>>>


The Brahmin-Baniya temples were not only far from us, but the Gods sitting and sleeping in those temples were basically set against us. There were Brahmin-Baniya houses within our villages, but the very same houses built up a culture inimical to ours. The Brahmin-Baniyas walked over the corpses of our culture. They were the gluttons while our parents were the poor starving people - producing everything for the others comfort. Their children were the most unskilled gluttons, whereas our children were the contributors to the national economy itself. Their notion of life was unworthy of life itself, but they repeatedly told our parents that we were the most useless people. Having gone through all these stages of life, having acquired the education that enabled us to see a wider world, when we reflect upon our childhood and its processes it is nothing but anger and anguish which keeps burning in our hearts.


( the above are excerpts from the bestseller book, translated in many languages ' Why I Am Not A Hindu ' by Dr kancha Ilaiah. His latest article on ' Nobel Laureate Amartya Sen and his book ' The Idea Of Justice ' has appeared in to-day's ' Asian Age ' http://www.asianage....-art-of-justice.aspx
B Prabhu
Mangalore, India
Oct 04, 2009 10:11 AM
126

Many of the postings I see are plain drivel. Somebody is accusing faruki and someone Gayatri devi. By this bullshit are they contributing to the discussion other than wasting precious space of Outlook?

Siddharth postings do hit the nail on the head and make us think what has gone wrong with our nation subjected to disinformation. The Congress in pursuit of political hegemony has stabbed the people of all religious denomination in the back and nobody seems wiser. The same herd mentality prevails even today when mass voting for Congress takes place even though many of the Congressmen are traitors.

Mahatma Gandhi scored a self-goal by bowing to Jinnah’s demands. Some argue that Partition was inevitable. Even if a partition had come later it would not have been so gory as to leave millions dead on both sides. Gandhi is fully responsible for this macabre event as he happened to be the towering personality during the crucial period and using his charismatic hold on the masses could have stood firm against the British fifth columnists who were instigating Jinnah. When Partition became inevitable quick-to-fasting Gandhi should have truthfully fasted till he died. This was the only way he could have redeemed himself. Yet he chose to live and witness the holocaust. There is something weird about Gandhi when it comes to preserving unity and integrity of India.
shakeel
hyderabad, India
Oct 04, 2009 08:36 AM
125

Gayatri/Lalit,

>> i live as a liberal, or try and do so.

A hate pracharak cannot be a liberal. Someone exhibiting open religious intolerance cannot be a liberal.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States
Oct 04, 2009 06:43 AM
124

KUMAR(to Gayatri Devi),

Its a well known fact that what ever you call a Muslim as whether a liberal or secular all that glory vanishes when it comes to their religion where he gets instantly transformed into a fanatic or a jihadi sympathiser.Islam even otherwise forbids the concepts of Democracy,secularism,religious tolerance and liberalism considering these as tools used by the Christian west or non Muslim world against it.I agree with you that irrespective of one's religion a common man strives to earn his daily bread in the first place.One can be religious but there is no need to be a fanatic.To look at every one as equal then every one has to look at others as equal.But in our country the political system runs on caste and religious divide.
Pakistan for another ten thousand years will have bitter relationship with India.A country born on a 'anti India' hate plank can never be a true and honest friend.Its the arrogant Pakistan that waged three unsuccessful wars on India and is now engaged in a proxy war.If the Pakistanis were at all friendly you would not have found the entire country getting tense during a India Pakistan cricket match.The whole world is now aware what Pakistanis are up to.A rogue,undemocratic and a country that lies to the world community.Its appropriately branded as a jihadi factory.There are enough people in this country enjoying the fruits of democracy here but having their souls in a an enemy country like Pakistan.Have you included these people too in your friendly lot.
you seems to enjoy living in utopia.The world has been made a unsafe place to live by Pakistanis who are engaged in gathering crude nukes and even selling them to notorious countries.Every society has its own plusses and minuses.Your purpose of living is understood and one has to live with such noble deeds but not necessarily alone on internet forums but in actual life.
Your list of those role models gives me a simple hint that you are a communist minded or a left oriented person.No big deal.Its your democratic right to choose.
Show me one Muslim country which is truly and honestly democratic,secular and liberal.some were on the path like Iraq and Turkey but your jihadi brothers would not want that to happen.The Muslim countries are definitely protecting the rights /justice/welfare but of their own or the Muslims alone.why Saudi Arabia is so religiously intolerant to the non Muslims.The Muslim countries will never go the way how the west has gone.Islam fears more the freedom means lesser its hold will be on its followers.
vijay
Bangalore, India
Oct 04, 2009 03:20 AM
123

Gayatri:

I am beginning to realise who you are.
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Oct 04, 2009 02:54 AM
122

kumar

you have not a clue about the real world, where there
are ongoing conflicts leading to violence,hate and killings. there is hardly one european or other
country where muslims live peacefully with nonmuslims.


you pretend that pakistani,s and indians are similr in
character and this exposes your complete ignorance.

i dont suppose you have read v.s.naipauls "anongst the
believers" aatish taseer "stranger to history",
books by ayan hirsi ali,views of Tasleema Nasreen,
Salman Rushdie.

Either you are completely ignorant or pretend to be
one . I noted this from the people you admire and the books you read.

Your sanctimnious pretensions are meant to ignore,or
deny reality.

You have gone around in your usual way, by not answering a direct question. I asked you to name one country you admire, and there was no answer.just
your usual sermoneising.this is the usual hypocracy
of people like you.

you are scared to comment on the mindset of many muslims. if they were just hard working people,they
would not be killing or burning your fellow christians.
there would be no taliban, laskar e toiba.there would
not be terror attacks all over the world, and subsequent denials by the pakistani govt.

i end my exchange of views with you. you are dishonest, naive and stupid.what exactly is your motive
in hideing from ground realities.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 04, 2009 01:51 AM
121

Gayatri Devi,

>> are muslims in india liberal-in which way

Most people of all religions just go on with lives in a normal way - working for a living, marrying, having children, trying to improve their standard of living, trying to get better conditions for their children than what they themselves had etc and abide the law of the land. There would be many people in all religions who don’t know much about religion or care to know deeply. There would be many who may or may not have a deep personal faith, but look at people at a human level and work for rights/dignity of all people etc. Thus applies to people of all religions including the Muslims in India.

>> are pakistani,s liberal- are they friendlt towards india- i mean the large majority.

The 'friendliness' of Pakistanis to India would be probably more or less a mirror image of 'friendliness' of Indians towards Pakistan. You will find all kinds of people. There will be people who are more bitter than others and some more friendly than others etc.

>> which are the societies yoú admire across the world,and where you would like to live.

The society that I admire the most are the ones that respect the rights/justice/freedom of people regardless of race, religion, caste etc. Many parts of secular democratic nations fall in that category (some more than others, but they should at least be open and make progress). The question of where I like to live is different question. I like to live where my presence would bring maximum benefit to the society. That is where I derive my sense of purpose etc.

>> who are your favourite writers, thinkers,

There are many, like Abraham Lincoln, Ambedkar, Gandhi, Nehru, Martin Luther King, Desmond Tutu, Raja Rammohan Roy, Nelson Mandela etc

>> is the world more open to open cultural societies now then before- if not why not.
>> is the world becomeing more tolerant-

Some people are, some people are not. The more important question is, which is the right way to go.

>> will muslim countries be more like western countries some time in the future.

The Muslim countries need not be 'like western countries' as you put it. As long as they can assert and protect the rights/justice/freedom/progress/welfare of all citizens regardless of race/religion etc, they are fine. I think they will and they have to - they don’t have a choice.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Oct 04, 2009 01:22 AM
120

Gayatri Devi,

>> dont believe that all peoples,races,nations are equal in intellect-if they were then the world would expeience uniform development.

That is not the question. The question is not whether all races/castes/nations etc are equally intelligent/developed etc as things stand today. Everyone agrees that there are reasons/circumstances/conditions etc due to which some races/castes/nations etc have had more development or have a larger percentage of people showing greater intellect etc. But the point is that people of races/castes can be intellectually, philosophically, morally meritorious and given the right conditions and time, any race/caste can catch up. And as human beings, we should desire/strive for that.

>> societies need people who have more values which unify, and few which devide

The issue could be in your mind and backward thinking. That is like saying that caste is a unifying faction and so inter-caste marriage has to be opposed. That is a backward thinking. Diversity in culture, arts, diverse personal religious faiths etc - I do not see why that is a problem. It should be celebrated.

>> you should not decide whether europe should accept immigrants if they do not want to.

I am not 'deciding' anything. But if someone says that a person is necessarily incompetent due to his/her nationality/race/caste etc, I will counter that argument (just as I would counter similar arguments made about inter-caste marriages etc)

>> your pontificateing as if you were the messiah, hovering over humanity flying with angel wings … you are a real weirdo

Everything that I am saying is pretty basic and agreed by billions of people all over the world. That you have a problem with it is the weird part. The Constitution of India (and of all secular democracies of the world) agrees 100% with me.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Oct 04, 2009 01:13 AM
119

Perhaps, if mountbatton had proposed an independant undivided india, with m k gandhi as pm or president, all, including jinnah might have accepted, like washington as the first president of usa. perhaps, india bled in partition, as price paid in not giving the real dues, to the leader who got it the freedom!
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 04, 2009 01:11 AM
118

faruki and kumar

a few direct questions, which need direct answers

aaa are muslims in india liberal-in which way

bbb are pakistani,s liberal- are they friendlt towards
india- i mean the large majority.

ccc which are the societies yoú admire across the world,and where you would like to live.

ddd who are your favourite writers, thinkers,

eee is the world more open to open cultural societies
now then before- if not why not.

fff is the world becomeing more tolerant-

wrt muslim countries
and nonmuslim countries.

ggg will muslim countries be more like western countries some time in the future.

now the ball is in your court.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 04, 2009 01:05 AM
117

R_P:>>"Gandhi had earlier said that India could be partitioned only over his dead body. The Partition occurred but Gandhi remained alive. When sceptics taunted Gandhi about this his former secretary and biographer, Peareylal, recorded that Gandhi would angrily lash out at his critics and say should he kill himself just to satisfy others?" ..."Writing his last will and testament by which he sought the dissolution of the Congress as a political party on the very day of his assassination was a striking coincidence".

there is probably one possibility, that seems being ignored. despite being called mahatma, gandhi was also only human. perhaps, he expected that he may be made the prime minister or president of undivided india. no one even suggested it, bec people assumed he was a spiritual type, who did not want political office, altho excercised a lot of political power. perhaps, many of his Sakuni kind of operations leading to the partition of the country were out of frustration that he was not being offered the positions, others took, treating him only as senior advisor. He never got even the presidentship of the congress.

gandhi was only 78 at the time of india's independance. he was saying he will live beyond hundred. look at vajpayi, advani, joshi, karunaanidhi, all aged politicians, well beyond 80, none feeling too old for office!. if vajpayi had quit for advani in 2004, giving enough time for elec-prep, bjp might have won. only the illness of vajpay has brought LKA to the top!

perhaps gandhi paid the painful price of personal disappointment, for not getting the top office, for the perception of a spiritual halo, and consequent confusions, also. even nehru did not quit till death. rajaji started swatantra party when out of power! had renunciation gone out of the indic genes?
God only knows the truth. But, then, all the good souls do deserve the rest in peace with God.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 04, 2009 12:57 AM
116

kumar

aaa i dont believe that all peoples,races,nations are
equal in intellect-if they were then the world would
expeience uniform development. however in all nations there are people with exceptional intellect

bbb liberal societies need certain conditions in which
they can thrive.

the experience of european countries is that some kinds
of immigrants do not fit in their societies.
societies need people who have more values which unify,
and few which devide. muslims especially fall in the
camp where they have more things which devide and few
which unify.

you should not decide whether europe should accept immigrants if they do not want to. your lectures on
what constitutes a good society is laughable-are you
going to order european countries around- you are
plain round the bend.

even chinese, japanese, arabs decide whom they will accept and who they will reject.

i note your pontificateing as if you were the messiah,
hovering over humanity flying with angel wings, a pink
frock, whilst the others sing hallelujah.

i think you are a real weirdo-
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 04, 2009 12:37 AM
115

Gayatri Devi,

>> i live as a liberal, or try and do so.
>> i have eaten togather with dalits, muslims-and as well with my family. i believe in rights for all especially for women- the right to dress well, engage in song and dance, and with all opportunities to do well. i believe in freedom of thought and expression ..

You should assert and fight for the rights/justice/freedom of all citizens/human beings regardless of race, religion, caste, class etc (and that the state should necessarily do so). You should also assert that people of any race/caste etc can be intellectually, philosophically/morally meritorious given the circumstances, social conditions etc.
Instead, you talk of dividing nations multiple times on communal lines (instead of secular democracy where everyone is free to have their personal beliefs) and support ghettoized living (instead of accepting human diversity and freedom are part of life). You also seem to be inclined to believe that some races/castes etc have an inherent problem of being inferior etc for racist reasons. You have serious problems with freedom of religion. You have serious troubles, resentment and restlessness if someone criticizes violent extremists (and conveniently play a cheap trick of advising the critics to go to other places where problems are more). All these things go seriously against your claim of being a liberal and in fact places you in the exact opposite camp.
Kumar
Bangalore, India
Oct 04, 2009 12:16 AM
114

VARUN:

I am sorry if one remark in my last message to you may have been misunderstood by you.

When I asked "How stupid do you have to be...." I did not mean you personally. It would have been better put: "How stupid does one have to be...." I was speaking about people in general.

But going back to the subject, it is amazing how tenaciously many Hindus hold on to illusions about Muslims.

The blunt FACT is, for reasons both GOOD and bad, Muslims utterly despise and loathe Hindus.

Their emotional committment is to the Middle East and Arabia. The feel nothing but alienated contempt for anything in Indian history apart from the things brought by Islamic invaders.

This can never change.

Muslims are Indian in appearance but Arabs at heart, and fanatical ones at that.

The appalling fellow called Anwaar is a good example. He is rabidly enthusiatic about Muslim throat-slitters in Afghanistan or Iraq, but never shows the slightest concern for any cause connected with Hinduism.

Nehru took a great, beneficial, decision when he decided to accept Pakistan. It saved Hindus. Going for the delusion of a united India at that point would have been deadly: like deciding to marry a partner who fopr decades had declared her hatred for one.



Nehru had plenty of appeasing illusions about Muslims prior to this incredibly important decsion - the most important in Indian history - and afterwards, too. But in 1946 and 1947 he was at his most clear-headed and best.

His daughter Indira too had this pattern: entertaining deadly illusions about Muslim amiability, but realising the truth about them when it really counted, as in 1971 in the Bangladesh War.


A typical example
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Oct 04, 2009 12:00 AM
113

VIJAY AGGARWAL:

I suggest you get a rusted wheelbarrow for your wife. That is your level.
Iqbal Z
Pune, India
Oct 03, 2009 09:02 PM
112

A:>>"Many Nobel laureates are not related to any laureates"

chandra-sekhar was the nephew of c. v. raman.

perhaps, the mk-rajesh-types might ask for caste-cum-ethnicity-based reservations, on nobel awards also.
then the Bs of south india may be kept out for another century.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 03, 2009 08:56 PM
111

A:>>"Your glee could hardly be hidden"

please stop posting retort replies, reading only the first line of any statement. not eager for your replies, anyway.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 03, 2009 08:49 PM
110

V_C3:

you have the excellent potential for writing a book titled 'why I converted away from hinduism'. it will sell a lot of copies, like ilaya's book, being quoted by prabhu. all your fellow-pastors will enjoy reading it, can use it for further conversion of more hindus. good luck to you. but, I think you will be more convincing, if you honestly call yourself pastorji, instead of having the dirty hindu brahmin name of chatterji.

devout hindus know the spiritual significances, inner meanings, of all their puranas, itihaasas, temples and temple architectural details. they cannot be diverted by your misleading propaganda, waste of time and effort only.

you should probably concentrate on saving your churchdom from the disgrace it is getting from stories of the clergy misusing the sisters in your convents and the kids in your orphanages. It will help you reduce the number of millions in dollars, your church has to pay in damages. the amount can be better utilized for converting more credulous tribals. May jesus christ bless you with wisdom on your projects.

But, then, very soon, all devout christians and dveout moslems, also, will start seeing themselves as some more sanaatanists worshipping skanda in the name of jesus and Siva in the name of Allah. You ugly conversionist clergy are likely to be exterminated by the cross in jesus' hand turned into manoo-velan's spear. All the terrorist-islamists are likely to be burnt off by the fire-eye of Siva = allah only. It is already happening. every day, a good number of islamist terrorists are getting self-blasted and burnt out.

the only unfortunate aspect is that, while those killed by krishna's cakra or skanda's spear will get spiritual salvation, those burnt by Allah = Siva's fire-eye-fury will have their very souls extinguished. But God must have His reasons for such things happening. May His will be done.
v.seshadri
chennai, india
Oct 03, 2009 08:36 PM
109

" Hinduism is flexible and dynamic. "
'
Varun Shekhar

That is the root cause all the problems India is facing now .It was known even in 1947 .But you people were being led by Gandhi-Nehru with eyes closed.Nathu Ram Godse is being abused for killing Gandhi though he was hanged for his act .But what about Gandhi-Nehru and their betrayal of our Motherland ? They sent Rs. 55 crores as gift to Jinnah who had ordered sending of hordes in Kashmir .

Read the Offical War History :

"Official History of the Jammu & Kashmir Operations

Why did Pakistan invade Kashmir in the first place? First, Kashmir being a Muslim-dominant state was considered a natural part of Pakistan, which had made Islam the basis of its modern nationality. Second, Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan's Pathanistan Movement was gaining momentum and Kashmir was held out as a bait for luring the poor tribals away. The internal conditions of Jammu & Kashmir with religious passions aflame, lawlessness rampant and authority paralysed offered the right mix for the raiders to strike"


http://www.bharat-ra...fending-Kashmir.html

Still Gandhi forced GOI to finance Pakistan's War against India .

And you people call him Father of the Nation !!!
happy ram ambalvi
Ambala Cantt, India
Oct 03, 2009 08:34 PM
108

faruki

i live as a liberal, or try and do so.

i have eaten togather with dalits, muslims-and as well
with my family.

i believe in rights for all especially for women-
the right to dress well, engage in song and dance,
and with all opportunities to do well.

i believe in freedom of thought and expression( you
dont care for this)

i dont have any hang ups on what to eat or drink-

when i am not a liberal

------------------------

i am against religious orthodoxy or religious or idealogical bigotry.

against the skull caps, burqas, turbans, ghungats,
and like wise

i guess i am as liberal as those in the main stream
in europe.

who are the philosophers i respect
-----------------------------
amongst philiosophers-schopenhaur, hegel, voltair,david hume-

amongst statemen
-------------------------------

abraham lincoln, martin luther king, winston churchill,
de gaulle, nehru, patel, nelson mandela,

writers
----------------------------------

alexander sol----, tolstoy, sholakov, steinbeck,
j.d.salinger, harper lee, margaret mitchell,
dickens, shakespeare, galsworthy, naipaul, bronte
sisters, -------------

by the way i dont read mein kamf as you probably suspect for bed time reading.
gayatri devi
delhi, India
Oct 03, 2009 08:12 PM
107

Hinduism is not under trial or under watch, or a global ideological threat, Vivek Chatterjee. Islamism is. You can recount a number of bizarre ideas or practices under the rubric of Hinduism, with your crypto-Moslem or crypto-Christian lens. To what end? Hinduism is flexible and dynamic.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 03, 2009 07:59 PM
106

I wonder when Islamic monsters do namaaz what exactly they pray for. There is actually nothing in Koran to pray for except Prophet’s instigation to kill the kafirs.>>Siddharth of Chennai

Apparently, you are a Southie scum who is a proud of his religion. It goes without saying that you are one of those cattle worshippers.It is a known fact that Sita had sex with the monkey, Hanuman. She was later raped by Ravan. Ravan ki jai ho. MF Hussain painted a reality, the lewd nature of Sita and Saraswathi. Find below some facts about your holy religion:
Jagannath is the god enshrined in the famous Hindu temple at Puri. Sankarachariya, the spiritual head of the present Hindus of India, is the devotee of Jagannath of Puri. Hundreds of measures of rice and dal are cooked here daily to feed the thousands of worshippers.

At the Jaya-Vijiya gate of this temple various type of sexual orgies of the god Jagannath can be seen sculptured on granite stones. On the outer walls of this temple are life-size sculptures of the 64 types of sexual mating of men and women as described in the Kamasutra of Vatsyayana.

The dance Bhajan in this temple begins after 10 p.m each day behind closed doors. It is performed by one of the 120 dancing girls in the service of the temple. Each night a new dancing girl will have to come to the temple to dance before god Jaganath. This dance is witnessed only by the lifeless statue of Jagnnath and the Brahmin priest who plays on the musical instrument.

As the dance heightens to a crescendo, the girl discards her dress and dances stark naked. She then throws herself to the statue of Jagannath in an ecstasy shouting “O Lord, I am thy bride, please make love with me”.

Whether it is the lifeless idol of Jagannath or the living Brahmin priest who makes love with her is not known (It is strictly forbidden for Non-Hindus to enter the Jagannatha temple).

Dancing girls who have retired form the service of god Jagannath are now making both ends meet by leading a life of prostitution in the streets of holy Puri. Their patrons are the worshippers who come in their thousands to the sacred city.

Sabarimalai Sastha – Hindu God # 6

Sabarimalai Sastha or Ayyapa is a sylvan god worshipped by the credulous Hindus of Kerala and Tamil Nadu in India. He is the son born to Siva and Vishnu as a result of a homosexual act.

To escape from the curse of the powerful demon Durwasa, all the gods joined together and churned the milky ocean to gather “Amrut”-a butter-like ambrosia. They collected the “Amrut” in a pot, and kept it to be served at a heavenly feast. An Asura (demon) from the nether world stole the pot of ” Amrut from Develoka. When the loss of the ambrosia was detected, the omniscient Vishnu was able to know where it was. He went to the nether world in the guise of Mohini, a woman of exquisite beauty, and brought and back the “Amrut” and served it to the gods. When Mohini was serving the Amrut, Shiva got intoxicated with her beauty and had sexual intercourse with her, who was in reality Vishnu. Vishnu became pregnant as a result of the homosexual act, and gave birth to Sastha from his thigh. Both Shiva and Vishnu discarded this un-naturally born illegitimate child in the forests of Sabarimalai in Kerala.

Sri Rama – Hindu God # 5
Sri Rama was another incarnation of Mahavishnu. He and his three brothers Lakshmanan, Bharatha and Shatrugna were born to three wives of King Dasharatha. Like Jesus, Ram and his brothers were not through a human father although Dasharatha was the husband of their mothers. They were conceived in their mothers’ wombs as a result of the three women eating portions of a sacred porridge.

Krishna – Hindu God # 4

Krishna is the 9th incarnation of Mahavishnu. Like Jesus Christ, Krishna was born as the “son of man” at Ambadi among cowherds. Although he had sixteen thousand and eight wives, Krishna did not let other women go free. Once, when he saw some Gopi women bathing in the river Kalindi, Krishna carried away their clothes from the bank of the river, and got on a nearby tree to feast his eyes on the Gopi women bathing in the nude. He returned their dresses only after each of them came out of the water and worshipped him so that he could see their nude bodies in full. It is claimed that Krishna was so potent that he could satisfy all his 16008 wives at the same time.

Indra – Hindu Gods # 3
Indra is the head of all gods. Amarawati was his celestial residence. Arjun was born to Indra as a result of his clandestine adultery with Pandu’s wife, he had no hesitation in committing adultery with the wives of other men. One day when Indra saw Ruchi, the beautiful wife of Devasarma, he became extremely passionate and wanted to seduce her. But Ruchi chased Indra out ,and he had to go away disappointed.

On another occasion Indra could not control his sexual passion when he saw Goutama’s wife Ahalya. He committed adultery with Ahalya when her husband was away. On his return home Goutama saw Indra in sexual interlock with his wife. Goutama cursed both of them.

Once Aruna visited Devaloka in the disguise of a woman. When Indra saw this woman in disguise he could not control his passion. He had sexual intercourse with this imitation woman. Bali was born as the result of this un-natural homosexual cohabitation
Vivek Chatterjee
CALCUTTA, India
Oct 03, 2009 07:58 PM
105

test
Vivek Chatterjee
CALCUTTA, India
Oct 03, 2009 07:47 PM
104

"In 1946, the Interim government to prepare Independence headed by Nehru was utterly stalled by pig-headed Muslim determination to obstruct each and every measure.

Even Nehru, inclined to make endless excuses for Muslims, was completely exhausted and disillusioned. As he said, even Partition was better than this descent into governmental paralysis and social mass killing."

Yes, Iqbal. Nehru himself was so disgusted and repelled by the behaviour of the Moslem representatives, that he wondered whether he didn't belong to a different nation than they did. It was sayonara at that point. My "whining" is not so much about the partition per se, brutal as it was. It's about the nature of the people who made it inevitable. Demagogic, violent, gangsterish... a disaster.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 03, 2009 07:41 PM
103

"The barbarism has been continuous down the ages and yet Gandhi ignored it trying to mix oil and water by saying "Ishwar Allah tero naam!". If stupidty should get"

Good observation. The initiative for such ideas always comes from Hindus; Moslems reject the above slogan unreservedly. Try openly uttering the passage in Pakistan or among the Taliban.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 03, 2009 07:35 PM
102

Siddarth, those passages from the Koran targeting Hindus/idolaters are absolutely blood curdling. One hopes this is not the view of Hindus throughout Moslem majority countries.
Varun Shekhar
Toronto, CANADA
Oct 03, 2009 06:55 PM
101

Gayatri/Lalit,

>> these are the qualifications of being a liberal in india....

Your idea of being a liberal is to be an agnostic and to hate the community that it is currently fashinable to hate! If you were living in Europe seventy years ago you would have been in the forefront of the anti-semitic brigade! We do have a good liberal tradition in India, but you are the exact opposite of a liberal. I must add that our liberal tradition is under-represented in this forum.
Anwaar
Dallas, United States