Rema Nagarajan, TNN
NEW DELHI: Are fake drugs manufactured in China being pushed into various African countries with the `Made in India' tag? The Indian government
has long suspected this to be the case, but it now has definite evidence for the first time.
Last week, the National Agency for Food and Drug Administration and Control (NAFDAC) of Nigeria issued a press release stating that a large consignment of fake anti-malarial generic pharmaceuticals labelled `Made in India' were, in fact, found to have been produced in China.
New Delhi has registered ``strong protest'' with the Chinese mission and China's foreign trade ministry, according to sources in the commerce ministry.
India's High Commissioner in the Nigerian capital of Abuja, Mahesh Sachdev, had earlier written to then commerce secretary GSK Pillai, alerting him to the large seizure: ``While this is a case of a Chinese company exporting fake `Made in India' labelled medicines which has been accidentally exposed, it is unlikely to be an isolated incident. Indeed there is no reason for Nigeria to be the only country to be receiving such consignments.''
His letter went on to say: ``Fake foreign-made generics carrying `Made in India' label can do tremendous harm to our interests. It not only dents our image and takes our legitimate market share, it also erodes the distinction between generic and fake medicines that we have been campaigning for at WHO and WTO''.
Commerce ministry sources said: ``We have had many complaints about such fake drugs from China being offloaded as Indian drugs in countries like Ghana, South Africa, Ivory Coast and West Africa — in general, where India has a substantial market share. But so far there has been no formal complaint. This is the first time that such a large international consignment has been seized and this will be taken up strongly with the Chinese side.''
Sachdev in his letter said that he had spoken to the director-general of NAFDAC Dr Paul Orhii who said that the Nigerian preference for generics made such cases of fake drugs more common. He expressed NAFDAC's determination to curb circulation of substandard fake medicines.
India and China have been held primarily responsible for fake drugs in the Nigerian market in particular and Africa in general. About 60% of drugs in Nigeria are imported. Between 2001 and 2007, more than 30 Indian and Chinese companies were banned in Nigeria for exporting fake drugs to the country.
However, Dr Mira Shiva of the Initiative for Health Equity and Society (IHES) told TOI that both India and China being large manufacturers of generics, multinational firms would look to discredit the two countries and label their drugs as substandard, so that they would have greater access to the African markets. She warned against the two countries trying to run each other down before ascertaining the full facts in the case to rule out any orchestration, but added that India ought to be more careful to ensure the quality of the drugs exported as well as sold domestically.
Vijay Nair,India,says:This is a shocking news. India's credibility is at stake internationally. This act of China can be detrimental to India's growth trajectory. No sovereign nation can take this for granted. Our Govt. must wake up and see the conspiracy being hatched out by China to defame our country and hamper its economic growth. This is serious issue and China must be told in strongest possible language to dissuade from this nefarious activities maligning India and its reputation. If China does not relent, all necessary retaliatory action must be initiated to teach a lesson to this imposters from our neighbourhood.
[9 Jun, 2009 1412hrs IST]
P.G.Rajagopal,Abu Dhabi,says:Playing with the health and safety of people are dangerous games. We now perceive that China is a country that survives on a disguised morality and humanity, but by addiing sweetwords like 'liberation', 'all countrie labor unite', 'a government for the people'to every thing; while allow no freedom, choice or liberty and treat people like cattle stock. Still facking the medicine and giving a kung fu kick to the health and safety safeguards was least expected from the Chinese.The whole world would have now be wondering and stunned how depressed are the communist mentalities, the communists behave like mentally degraded and retarded and communists mortgaged their humanly sanities totally deep into the chinese yellow river. There is no social justice in China, in China also oppressed it the ordinary poor people, the commoners; all benefits only to communist party members. People are not given any choice, just accept what is imposed or get punished. Let these African countries take at most care while dealing with Chinese in order to save their lives.
[9 Jun, 2009 1410hrs IST]
R.Kumar,Norway,says:Hello, I do not understand why India is afraid of China and do not take Chinese inervention in all matters very serious This matter should taken in UNO and in WHO for further investigation.
[9 Jun, 2009 1359hrs IST]
vishnu,Satara,says:Ok Guys leave out patriotism & go in market to Buy Toys, you will see Doll (Made in China) Rs 20 Much Much Much Much....... better than Doll (Made in India) Rs 50. Can some one explain really why??? Please No finger pointing or blaming. This is not a show "cause" Notice. Just a self assessment.
[9 Jun, 2009 1313hrs IST]
shoukat firfiray,NRI,says:I think our hon'ble health minister should launch an inquiry for master mind hehind this act and bring the culprit before justice. I doubt china can dare such act against its peaceful neighbour, without indian big head behind this crime. This should be seriously handled on high level positions to prevent dignity of India throughout globe. I wish our officials will take all necessary measures to control and put proper checks and balance at all border lines.
[9 Jun, 2009 1248hrs IST]
Varsha,Bangalore,says:The race to becoming the number one economy has made China resort to such unethical means. Someone needs to teach the Chinese what "healthy competetion" means. At this rate they'll worsen the health of their own country. This matter can not and should not be taken lightly.
[9 Jun, 2009 1242hrs IST]
MKRao,Hyderabad,says:LET US MAKE OUR MOTTO "DO NOT BUY MADE IN CHINA". Let us like most people around the world dispise chinese products. Let us not bu the products made in china and sold in India even if it a US or European brands.
[9 Jun, 2009 1225hrs IST]
irfankim,Korea,says:TELL OUR INDIAN CPM/CPI. MR KARAT CAN YOU ANSWER PLZZ
[9 Jun, 2009 1213hrs IST]
PK,Singapore,says:Another Chinese ingenuity. India never has the guts to stand upto it.
Amit pandit,Delhi,says:This is what happens when you have fools for leaders and an extremely incompetent systems in place. Perhaps on the IDF, ( the Indian Defence Forces) need to take stock of the situation and bang these Chinese and Pakistani thugs who wish to harm our Nation.
[9 Jun, 2009 1201hrs IST]
vineet,mumbai,says:This thing refers to our imfamous flag operations wherein a country provokes the other country against a third country by committing acts of sabotage using a false names.This is a highly serious matter of discrediting the name of India in the world body.India should launch a strong protest with the communist govt and should demand a sincere apology and strong actions against the culprits.China is trying to hurt the Indian self interest in Africa because such thing cannot be done without the consent of their politburo.May India wake up to its self interest and does not discard it as any other border skirmish
[9 Jun, 2009 1158hrs IST]
Amit Ahluwalia,NCR,says:The Chinese must realize that Two can play this game... Imagine a slew of "Made in China" labeled goods pushed into the market to further reiterate the substandard quality the Chinese are anyways renowned for.. hehehe.
[9 Jun, 2009 1153hrs IST]
Rajeev,Delhi,says:Actually china is worried about india's progress in all fields, thats why they want to spoil the image of India. India should raise this issue at WHO.
[9 Jun, 2009 1150hrs IST]
Raja,Bangalore,says:Whatever the comment are..............our great leaders are not going to take any action against this.. :(
[9 Jun, 2009 1146hrs IST]
Dr. Paras Deo,Germany,says:The Chinese fake everything.....I recently bought, in the catalugue labeled "INDIAN SHIRT". But as the delivery came I noticed a mini label from China. I called up the mail order service who then said that they too had been "conned". The shirt were from China and not kurtas from India. They took back the order and returned my money......This happened in Germany!!!! The Chinese are selling fake drugs and fake textiles and giving India a bad name.
[9 Jun, 2009 1145hrs IST]
qamar,Muscat,says:I am not surprised, as this is being done at the behest of indian traders who are operating in that region and sourcing it from china for the african market........we must check and put controle on all such traders/manufactureres who are having connection with chinese market.........all such players must be penalised heavily for this fraudulant act and be booked.
[9 Jun, 2009 1145hrs IST]
Purnendu Pattnaik,Bhubaneswar,says:And they say they are growing at 11.5 per cent per year. I dont understand how much they can stoop. Anyways thanks to TOI for making this headlines, It should ensure that these news is highlighted throughout the World.Let the whole world know who is playing foul.
[9 Jun, 2009 1142hrs IST]
Kumar,UAE,says:Not only fake drugs but many other populer items are immediately copied and a cheap virson is dumped in the African markets by China. China has long survived on this tectics and every one knows that it will go to eny extend to make money. How can you forget the contaminated baby milk scam in side China itself and Artificial eggs made of PVC by products. Chinese are the most crooked people.
[9 Jun, 2009 1136hrs IST]
J Chacko,Doha,says:Chinese businessmen are known for fakes....whatever they find hot selling including famous brands-pen,tools&hardware,cosmetics,watches,goggles,linen....now medicines ,they will produce in China even marking required country of origin.The goods will be shipped to you ...It is so easy to place orders..All they want is money......Govt of China openly encourages this.... The whole gulf states are flooded with these products
Elayaraja,Kuwait,says:Some of thing need control in our country also,but now china is taking advantage of all our country weakness,Exchanging label,Stop import and export goods for some of country in world.We can save our time and money also.Please Use our Goods and buys own product,Company can give nice material to indian People also. Save our country..Save our Money and Name of the Country
[9 Jun, 2009 1128hrs IST]
Tamil,Singapore,says:Why Indians in India are so paranoid? Evidence! Please! I bet the Indian government dare not address this issue to WHO, because it doesn't have the "solid evidence" as they claimed. Indians in India should grow up, you are too easy agitated by the media. Crying babies, grow up!
[9 Jun, 2009 1126hrs IST]
Deep,nagpur,says:and sickularists and communists never cease to say "Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai"!!! I would love to hear what our communists have to say about this.
[9 Jun, 2009 1123hrs IST]
Venny,US,says:This needs a very strong action from India pulling in international pressure. Its time for couragoes leaders taking action. The intentions are far malecious and should be judged beyond this catch of fake medicine.
[9 Jun, 2009 1121hrs IST]
Thameem,Chennai,says:It's really good news, India should take effective steps in order to curb such malpractices by Chinese. Everyone is telling, Chinese economy is strong, which is not true, i have worked with them closely, first of all they don't do a costing, just they match the offer. In next 50years, let communist falls, there will no Chinese. I am very sure
[9 Jun, 2009 1120hrs IST]
Akash Sabarwal,Bangalore,says:We Should find the reason why these things are happening ,what problem have our neighbours why they are continiously doing these type of things and after that strict actions should be taken,assume that if these drugs would have been made by indians and tagged as MADE IN CHINA ,then what action china would have taken against India.
[9 Jun, 2009 1117hrs IST]
s.venkat,india,says:CHINA CHINESE CANNOT INNOVATE. THEY ARE CHEAP LABOURERS ONLY MANUFACTURING CHEAP THINGS.THIS IS A SIGN OF DESPERATION FROM CHINA. THE WHOLE WORLD TAKE MY PREDICTION. BOTH U.S.A AND ENTANGLED WITH EACH OTHER IN THE FINANCIAL CRISIS.THE BURST OF U.S.A IS THE END OF CHINA. DO NOT HOLD U.S DOLLARS OR THE YUAN OR CHINA STOCKS OR INVEST IN CHINA.IT IS COMING SOON. CHINA CANNOT AFFORD TO TALK LOUD NOW AS THEY KNOW THAT THEIR DEATH BELLS HAVE STARTED O RING AND IT IS GETTING LOUDER AND LOUDER.
[9 Jun, 2009 1114hrs IST]
Pranay Verma,Delhi,says:Clearly China is maligning India. A tactic to create a buzz amongst Nigerians that Indian Goods are shoddy. Be it drugs or any other product. This shall give Chinese goods an extra mile over Indian drugs as they can market it at the same price. It has been well thought of to reap benefits for a long period of time. India has to tackle it subtly and intelligently. Maybe advertise in Nigerian media. One problem with our country is that the decision making authorities cant reach a consensus on these issues. And the primary reason being that Indians think and act regionally. Look at the festivals, holidays, elections. There is hardly anything National that emanates from within. We give importance to local events more than national things. India has to emerge as a nation of people who ought to be respected and considered of a superior race because of their ancestry and having being civilized the country and the planet for long. It needs a change in thinking by Indians. We should think ourselves of as Indians. Otherwise how different shall be from Yugoslavia?
[9 Jun, 2009 1109hrs IST]
Subdude India,Pune,says:Does Indian Govt. understand the seriousness of this issue? It is not only about the reputation but also about India Inc. brand value in the global market. Just imagine what will happen if Indian company does the same thing with China. Strong measures must be immediately taken. However it needs guts and respect towards our own country which we hardly have. This will be highlighted for some time, we will give evidence to China, they will deny or ignore it and so on. This will continue till next scam occurs and we will enjoy the new scam completing forgetting this one.
[9 Jun, 2009 1107hrs IST]
Basheer,Dubai,says:astonishing! India must stringent measure to tackle the issue, how can a country like China produce fake drugs with the tag of another country like India. are we taken for granted? Shame on China,
[9 Jun, 2009 1106hrs IST]
Rahul,LA,says:China is our big enemy than Pakistan. No hindi chini bhai bhai! India govt should protest this in UNO.
[9 Jun, 2009 1102hrs IST]
Jitender Singh Nohwar,Bnagkok, Thailand,says:dear sir....i am living & working in bangkok (thailand ) since year 2000. china is doing intentionaly wrong & giveing false informations in all feild of business or socially against india. recently i have seen one GLOBE which is made in china... in globe shows..JAMMU & KASHIMIR in a another color nad give name " KASHMIR " which shows separate from india !!! i have that GLOBE as a proof.
[9 Jun, 2009 1102hrs IST]
raj,india,says:hmm...look like its a tip of iceberg...here enemy is strong,quick,inteligent most important he is joulous, and he can go up to any level (he will kill ur babies if he didnt get u)
[9 Jun, 2009 1101hrs IST]
Santhi Gp,Bhimavaram,says:In this era of wepons of mass distructions no country however mighty it be will resort to conventional war fae with countries like India. They find India with ever squablling self serving political executive as sitting ducks for this kind of economic warfare where economics and reputations can be hurt beyond repair. It is not just China Pakistan too is known to do these things.With the decisive mandate UPA shall now do some thing befitting the faith peeple put on them.
[9 Jun, 2009 1059hrs IST]
Pranay Verma,Delhi,says:China is maligning India. A tactic to create a buzz amongst the Nigerians that Indian goods are fake. Be it drugs or any thing else. China shall get an extra mile over this. India is too democratic a country to handle such things. There shall never be any concensus by the various parties on these issues. If only Indians were united, shall there be a fear and respect for Indians. Look at Australia - Indians are thrashed and not much is being done to prevent or stop it. The undercurrent has now become open. Indians should think, speak and act as Indians and not as from the state. Hardly anyone cares for the national language or anything national. Everthing works at the regional level. Be it elections, festivals, holidays etc. Only an united India can become a strong world leader. Not a group of regions like Yugosolavia.
[9 Jun, 2009 1052hrs IST]
Suba,Melbourne,says:Using India's name by chinese companies producing and exporting fake goods is not only bringing killing for good India's market share but bringing down India's reputation for good. India should re-act not just by complaining to China but stop importation of chinese goods into India and expose Chinese companies names, products worldwide countries. Only then China will learn.
[9 Jun, 2009 1052hrs IST]
Albert,Kinshasa,says:Many companies are bringing the medicines from china with made in india tag. In Africa in DRC alone many companies are bringging. All the injections are from china with india made tag. The biggest companeis like Zenufa, shalina, Sikina,Unique Etc are bring the medecines with made in india tag. DRC is highly corrupted country and can be managed any thing here. ALL FAKE MEDICINES.Here all Ismailies and shias are just for money.They literally killing african. I just returned from US and shocked to see the FAKE medicies in market. Congolese has to wake up and stop buying mediciens from indian and chines companies. Can indian government make a investigation and stop all these.
[9 Jun, 2009 1043hrs IST]
Vic Krishnan,Hong Kong,says:Best part is, these drugs are ordered by Indian Traders and then distributed in Africa by Indian Traders...besides other items like Godrej Locks and Bajaj Scooters...
[9 Jun, 2009 1042hrs IST]
luv,hyd,says:Every one says china has done tremendous growth..I have a question where is the innovation there?They just copy everything and export that what a shame...
[9 Jun, 2009 1041hrs IST]
Nitin,Chicago,says:What china has done by exporting fake drugs is a unholy act but I want to point out what is the major issue here.. China exporting Fake drugs or Undermining India's Image.. the former should be the main issue but seems like the later is being politcized and being hightlighted ! I am sure it wouldnt have been a headline if there was no Indian connection !
[9 Jun, 2009 1034hrs IST]
PC,Delhi,says:China can never be trusted in any respect. First of all they are Chinese and secondly they are communists which simply means untrustworthy people.
[9 Jun, 2009 1032hrs IST]
RK,india,says:This is not protest time, but some kickin arse time, Cut all trasde deals with these bastards, Indian Leadership should focus purely not on trusting such dirty minded people and more than that the Maoists / Communists in India should bear responsibility.
[9 Jun, 2009 1027hrs IST]
Anup ,Muscat,says:Beware India...China is the Biggest threat to you. We are just simply obsessed with Pakistan. Chinese can go the deepest to undermine India wherever it is excelling.....It's time to say Hindi Chini Bye bye....unless they cry for Bhai bhai...
[9 Jun, 2009 1022hrs IST]
RKChary53,India,says:Pakistan, China, Bangladesh and US - these countries can do anything to destroy India at any cost, whenever they get a chance. We should raise these points to World Health Organisation and UN.
[9 Jun, 2009 1020hrs IST]
Juby Mathews,Muscat,says:This is a proxy war waged by China against India. They are trying to malign the image of India worldwide by issuing counterfeit drugs as made in India. The USFDA and WHO should take a very serious note of this and issue a stern warning to China.
[9 Jun, 2009 1013hrs IST]
Ragesh,USA,says:I think this is media propaganda. The "Chinese" are "attacking" us and they are trying to "destroy" us!!!.. Even the "title" of this article is false. How about is a chinese newspaper reports that "Indians faking their software companies" obviously refering to Satyam Scandal? I think media needs to be more responsible before reporting with such a "title"..
[9 Jun, 2009 1013hrs IST]
rajesh,India,says:Dear all, if you dont stop China now they will make hell of our life. I know many Chinies they are determined to do all wrong things against India. The lazy, corrupt politician will never do and this is not politician responsibilty we as Indian has to raised our voice againest them. What our software engineer are doing they are not able to hack Chinies website this is also responsibility of politician, do not always blame and dependent on politics, since we are so much dependent on politician that is why politician behaving like big dadies, just start igonoring them thy will come on the road.
[9 Jun, 2009 1009hrs IST]
AMit,Pune,says:The present Govt. in India is so weak under the PMship of Singh and it doesnot want to take any concrete steps to tackle any Domestic and Intl. issues. We should have a strong Govt. as well as Leader like Hon. late Indira Gandhi. How could we accept such things like what Pak, China, banladesh and even Nepal has done so far as far as Terrorism, Fake Currency, fake Medicines and Incursions were and areconcerned. We have spoiled our own reputation in the past, so we should take serous and sincere steps and come up as Strong Nation in Asia.
[9 Jun, 2009 1004hrs IST]
prabhu,bangalore,says:These Chinese are criminals and are more dangerous than the Terrorists. India should be careful in dealing with them as they do anything for their growth. India should ban its Toys first, as it contains poisons substance and spoiling the Children of our nation.
[9 Jun, 2009 0946hrs IST]
Godfrey Rasquinha,UAE,says:THis gross act of supplying fake genericx medicines made in China and labelled as Made in India and passed onto countries in the African continent.The Indian Mission must take strong action and report the matter to the WHO and theFDA of USA as well so that they are aware of this scam and arrest the manufacturers.If allowed to go unnoticed Indias reputation could be damaged beyond repair
[9 Jun, 2009 0922hrs IST]
k .madhukar,bangalore,says:Should'nt we now remember our great leader Mr jawarlal Nehru once again,for coining the slogan" Hindi chini bai bai" and himself believing that it was so.
[9 Jun, 2009 0921hrs IST]
Baiju AS,Cherthalla,says:This must have been done with the active connivance of chinese govt.Made in china label evokes a response from a prospective buyer as a product of substandard quality.They want to give the same response to Indian medicines by this nefarious activity.
[9 Jun, 2009 0921hrs IST]
D V Giri,Bangalore,says:This is a very serious Issue. India should strongly take this at WTO with strong evidence.Fake drugs is wrost than Drug Trafekking. India should not allow China to get away with this.
[9 Jun, 2009 0920hrs IST]
Sahadevan,Mumbai,says:Tell this to our communists
[9 Jun, 2009 0918hrs IST]
anil,beijing,china,says:A country which is best known for its cheap and counterfeit products whether it is tainted milk or poisonous toys,what can we expect from that cheap country.but this time they have crossed another milestone by sending fake drugs to Africa.you could have sent ot to USA,but why are u playing with these poor.so,i pray you not to take lives and not to corrode our image.
[9 Jun, 2009 0912hrs IST]
Farhang,UAE,says:Whether it is pharmaceuticals, automobile parts,agricultural products the big multinational companies from the West and Japan do not like new competitors posing a threat to their products and profits. One way is to set up plants in China and label the product as made in India or anywhere else and export. Money is made as well the competitor is bow beaten and his name tarnished. The Babu as is usual is the last person to wake up and realise what is happening
[9 Jun, 2009 0912hrs IST]
NARAYAN NANDWANI,PANAMA,says:CHINA WILL ALWAYS TRY TO UNDERMINE INDIA IN ALL WAYS, WE BHARATWASI ALWAYS TRUST TOO MUCH OUTSIDERS AND FORGIVE VERY SOON BECAUSE OUR SANSKRITI CULTURE HAS TAUGHT SO THEN GET STABED IN THE BACH FROM FOREIGNERS . IT IS TIME TO LEARN AND SAVE HINDUSTAN AND BHARAT JAIHIND
[9 Jun, 2009 0905hrs IST]
SL,bangalore,says:Till India is not taking any strong steps towards countries like pak and china such things will keep on happening. Our great leaders only talk but never act. Its action that should say everything.
[9 Jun, 2009 0903hrs IST]
DN,Bangalore,says:This is a really sick. We have a bunch of idiots for neighbors and a government thats sleeping sound.
[9 Jun, 2009 0859hrs IST]
Dinesh Reddy,US,says:Please for god's sake no more be defensive, be proactive\attack. Please let our enemies think twice to make a move against us. For gods sake grow up!!!!
[9 Jun, 2009 0857hrs IST]
Dipankar,Mumbai,says:This is commercial terrorism. Just like the state policy of Pakistan to sponsor terrorism keep India under pressure, the Chinese try to malign India globally to affect India's growth trajectory.
[9 Jun, 2009 0847hrs IST]
Thiru,B'lore,says:What are doing Babus & Netas??
[9 Jun, 2009 0833hrs IST]
A Dass,Singapore,says:One more Hindi-Chini bhai bhai fallout. Start being tough, instead of behaving like a jackal with your tail between your legs.
[9 Jun, 2009 0821hrs IST]
Jayakrishnan,Kannur,Kerala,says:China is notorious for duplicates, and sub standard products. Recently, there were cases of adultrated milk being exported from China all over the world, which resulted the death of many infants. Its a nation full of cheats and hypocrats. They are very eager to show the world they are the best, and to get this done they would adopt any shrewd ways. The chinese Industrialist lacks ethics and morale, and tarnishing India's image is their hidden agenda. India should be cautious against this malicious campaign of the Chinese.
[9 Jun, 2009 0810hrs IST]
Dr(Prof) Vijay Kumar(Retired),Ratu,Ranchi,Jharkhand,says:Though, China is trying to be economically self dependen & it is trying all the possible wrong means to earn more.We Indians must take a vow not to use any product and article made and manufactured by China.But is is very very difficult -- How ? Now note what I am going to say -- The wireless modem installed at my residence for BROAD BAND by BSNL(India) is made of China. Here lies a BIG _ BIG ?
[9 Jun, 2009 0808hrs IST]
youknowwho,youknowhere,says:China - India's Enemy no 1. What else did you expect, mate?
[9 Jun, 2009 0745hrs IST]
LSR,Chennai,says:All countries has to stop importing any items from China. China is more dangerous than Pakistan. China helped Srilanka for winning aganist Srilankan tamilian (LTTE). North Indians did not understand the real fact of that war. Now not only Srilanka won aganist LTTE, but also China has won aganist India. Our Govt lead by Mrs.Sonia wanted to take revenge aganist LTTE, that really hurted for India. In case LTTE has won and get separate Tamil Elam, they support on ly India and not China/Pakistan.
[9 Jun, 2009 0723hrs IST]
Vikram S,Mumbai,says:China is one of the most secretive and vicious country in the world with all their tactics.
[9 Jun, 2009 0717hrs IST]
Do you care,Does TOI care,says:Ban all Chinese goods in India. All PC's, mobiles phones, laptops, etc are made in China, irrespective of the brand. Tomorrow if India has a confrontation with China, how can we be sure that they have not slipped in some software which they can use to make everything go dead.
Dr Tarashankar Rudra,India,says:China is a Parasite of the Planet. They are not only the epicenter of terrorism, but are also the hub of lies, fake goods and fraud.
[9 Jun, 2009 0709hrs IST]
Indian,Indian,says:Don't blame China. You can find fake drugs in India. Stop whining.
[9 Jun, 2009 0633hrs IST]
Vedanarayanan Andanallur,Oregon, USA,says:In good old days, (probably in 1950s), a joke used to be in circulation around Bombay, about, toys and electronic goods with lable "Made by U.S.A", though made near Bombay, India. The expansion was said as "Made by Ulhasnagar S....Association" !..With malice towards none ! By the Way, we will be glad to hear Mr.Karat to give his Comments. Prior to Elections, he used to be quick in offering comments..right from Atomic Energy onwards...if anything is said related to China.
[9 Jun, 2009 0633hrs IST]
Faisal,canada,says:I believe China is the only nation that can stop the proliferation of axis of EVIL which is: India, Israel and US. Way to go China!
[9 Jun, 2009 0630hrs IST]
Sanjay,Phoenix,USA,says:Yes, I agree with the Indian Government contention, that fake drugs made in China with"Made in India" lable harm the image of India. India should pursue this case with WTO. However a bigger problem which lies within India is fake Made in India drugs, well made within India, which of course is a low priority for the government. Who cares if a few thousand or maybe more Indians die from such fakes. Problem with such a prosecution is that such operations get political cover thus hindering law enforcement from performing their job. Getting the priorities straight any one???
[9 Jun, 2009 0626hrs IST]
Nadeer,Shanghai,says:They do this. I had been to a bumper jack factory in Shanghai, and they told they could print 'made in anywhere' on the jack. In fact they export it to many countries as 'made in Germany'. Only recently Iranian authorities found out some items 'made in Israel' were actually from China.
[9 Jun, 2009 0619hrs IST]
Sunil,sydney,says:This is another means of making war against India! Chinese can never be trusted and are actively supplying Pakistan with weapons and nuclear technology to try and defeat India by all means.
[9 Jun, 2009 0616hrs IST]
KC,NY,says:When India has a rubber stamp PM this kind of anti Indian activities will go on. This government neither has policies nor has power to counter this kind of situation. This UPA government only knows to shelter and feed terrorists due to vote bank politics at the cost of tax payers money.
[9 Jun, 2009 0522hrs IST]
ganapathy,adambakkam,says:We should leave the past BHAI Bhai relationship with china and be more agressive in our Trade Missions in gathering field intelligence and acting on them. We should take it up with WHO without any delay.
[9 Jun, 2009 0517hrs IST]
Gopal,New Zealand,says:China will always remain India's main threat. Pakistan is another proxy for China. The recent Rajapakshe lead surge and defeat of the LTTE in Sri Lanka was possible only with China's (and Pakistan's) generous aid and encouragement. Now China has a 'friend' and a base in Sri Lanka, just 80 miles off the Indian coast! China is encircling India. And with the fake 'Made in India' label is tarnishing India's image in every possible way. Time to have a strong India.
[9 Jun, 2009 0504hrs IST]
PK,US,says:The story is not a surprise to someone like me who has lived in China for 3 long years! If one goes to Guangzhou, hong-kong or shenzhen (the pearl river delta), one could not miss those super containers being loaded at those docks. Curiosity piques when one sees most of the container destined to Dubai, and labelled Made in India. As much as China is to be blamed for those fake goods being sold under the name of Brand India,I would like to mention here that most of this was started by a few greedy Indian merchants (the so-called merchandisers, import-export businessmen). One does not have to dig deep to understand the situation when in China. Everything happens right there in front of everybody including the Chinese government officials!
[9 Jun, 2009 0453hrs IST]
Saratchandran,Australia,says:Nice neighborly act by a more powerful and affluent country!!? It is a pity that a country so powerful and leading in world commerce resort to such dirty tricks! Hope it is not a widespread disorder and the Government in China is not supportive of such miscreants. Indian Industries have to be more vigilant and protect their reputation and reliability.
[9 Jun, 2009 0451hrs IST]
Elliott,Uk,says:Dear TOI editor I hope you publish this comment. It is one thing regarding India as a competitor, but it is another thing to deliberately discredit a great democracy, in fact world's largest democracy, by manufacturing fake, and possibly dangerous,drugs and passing these as 'made in India'!!!! We have long known that China,as our enemy will do harm to India when ever possible, e.g. selling dangerous nuclear weapons to Pakistan. By the way, the money which the Pakistanis paid China came from the begging basket filled by the US ostensibly to help Pakistan to destroy the terrorists(terrorists they created in the first place). In all the countries to which Indian companies export drugs a very important memorandum must be sent to warn them of this disgusting and disreputable practice by the Chinese companies and also they must be requested to send as much relevant information to India as possible. Protesting to China will bear no fruit (they will simply send a denial). India MUST give this episode maximum possible publicity through the world press so that all countries importing drugs from India are alerted to this crime designed to destroy India's image and business. How low can China stoop, as bad as the other neighbour Pakistan with their design to destroy the Taj hotel in Nov 2008.Birds are of the same feather!!!! I wish we could choose our own neighbours.
[9 Jun, 2009 0439hrs IST]
bala srinivasan,saginaw.mich.usa.,says:THE ONE COUNTRY INDIA MUST WATCH LIKE A HAWK MILITARY,MONETARY,MANUFACTURING AND MIND GAME IS NONE OTHER THAN-CHINA.ITS CUNNING,SHREWD,CALCULATING MOVES SHOULD BE ACTIVELY MONITORED TO BE NEUTRALISED,IF NOT WE WILL BE.INDIAN GULLABILITY AND NAIVETTE PLAYS INTO CHINESE MAJANG GAME OF INDIAN CONTAINMENT MUST BE REPELLED.FOR GODS&COUNTRY'S SAKE INDIAN EXTERNAL MINISTRY NEEDS VIGILANT LOOK OUT FOR CHINESE HANKY PANKY AND NIP IT IN ITS BUD.
[9 Jun, 2009 0439hrs IST]
Abhijit,India,says:Shame on China!
[9 Jun, 2009 0438hrs IST]
P.S.Panwar,Raj,says:Hindi Chini Bhai Bhai!
[9 Jun, 2009 0434hrs IST]
JOMON,IRELAND,says:USE SATALITE TRAKING SYSTEM FOR ALL INDIAN MADE PRODUCT
[9 Jun, 2009 0427hrs IST]
babubhai ,USA,says:and add one more to your list......here in the US, there is a TIGER balm sold ,almost identical package,nothing but a lotion!!! and made in china !!!!
[9 Jun, 2009 0312hrs IST]
M P,USA,says:Chinese Prime Minister must be preparing to give an award to these fake drugs and mis labeling companies and will most likely reward them for doing such damage to India.
[9 Jun, 2009 0311hrs IST]
Bob,LA,says:Nigerians should have got surprised as everything fake in this world is 'Chinese'.
[9 Jun, 2009 0245hrs IST]
Latika Jane,Kuwait,says:China is a big threat not only to India but also to the International community. There is no other country in the world, I think which does not respect human rights as China. They are producing a lot of low quality products and exporting to other countries.Several had been exposed like the dangerous toys, harmful and toxic fruits, recent Milk powder containing melamine,pirated CD ... and many more. It is very important for all countries to give wide publicity to the dangers of using cheap Chinese products. The dangerous UV radiation hazard from cheap Chinese made fluorescent lamps is another important problem probably not well studied.Now this scandal of manufacturing low quality dangerous drugs and labeling it as made in India is harmful to Indian economy and dangerous in a much higher gravity for the International community. I sincerely hope the Indian government will take necessary steps to prevent this. Hope the media will give adequate importance to this so that the whole world will understand this danger which is as dangerous as terrorism.
[9 Jun, 2009 0240hrs IST]
Vikram,Bangalore,says:the govt of India only registers protest,does nothing...How many fake toys with lead would be in the country,melamine containing products...no one bothers...is anyone looking at it.Indians officials are interested in image makeover and nothing else...thanks MANMOHAN JIII,you are an example.
[9 Jun, 2009 0230hrs IST]
Subbu,Nigeria,says:There you go again, the CUNNING Chinese FOX is out on the run against India. One of the two damned neighbors whose wrath we have to bear and live with (considering that we breed gutless politicians). Our motto should be, Under no circumstance should we trust the motives of China and Pakistan."
[9 Jun, 2009 0228hrs IST]
DB,India,says:China Traders should be banned for doing such malicious act and trying to tarnish India image. WHO should come forward to take appropirate actions. Melamine has recently been in the news for being found in food products coming from China. Think "Is it safe to import from China"?
[9 Jun, 2009 0219hrs IST]
Tuesday, June 9, 2009
Saturday, June 6, 2009
Weekly curry 'may fight dementia'
Indian Curry
The key ingredient appears to be turmeric
Eating a curry once or twice a week could help prevent the onset of Alzheimer's disease and dementia, a US researcher suggests.
The key ingredient is curcumin, a component of the spice turmeric.
Curcumin appears to prevent the spread of amyloid protein plaques - thought to cause dementia - in the brain.
But the theory, presented at the Royal College of Psychiatrists' annual meeting, has been given a lukewarm reception by UK experts.
If you have a good diet and take plenty of exercise, eating curry regularly could help prevent dementia
Professor Murali Doraiswamy
Duke University
Amyloid plaques, along with tangles of nerve fibres, are thought to contribute to the degradation of the wiring in brain cells, eventually leading to symptoms of dementia.
Professor Murali Doraiswamy, of Duke University in North Carolina, said there was evidence that people who eat a curry meal two or three times a week have a lower risk of dementia.
He said researchers were testing the impact of higher doses - the equivalent of going on a curry spree for a week - to see if they could maximise the effect.
Animal studies
Professor Doraiswamy told the meeting: "There is very solid evidence that curcumin binds to plaques, and basic research on animals engineered to produce human amyloid plaques has shown benefits."
"You can modify a mouse so that at about 12 months its brain is riddled with plaques.
"If you feed this rat a curcumin-rich diet it dissolves these plaques. The same diet prevented younger mice from forming new plaques.
"The next step is to test curcumin on human amyloid plaque formation using newer brain scans and there are plans for that."
Professor Doraiswamy said a clinical trial was now underway at the University of California, Los Angeles, to test curcumin's effects in Alzheimer's patients.
He said research had also examined turmeric's therapeutic potential for treating conditions such as cancer and arthritis.
Good diet
He stressed that eating a curry could not counter-balance the increased risk of dementia associated with a poor diet.
Indian communities that regularly eat curcumin have a surprisingly low incidence of Alzheimer's disease but we don't yet know why
Dr Susanne Sorensen
Alzheimer's Society
However, he said: "If you have a good diet and take plenty of exercise, eating curry regularly could help prevent dementia."
Professor Doraiswamy predicted it might be possible to develop a curry pill which had the same therapeutic effect.
However, Rebecca Wood, of the Alzheimer's Research Trust, stressed that people would need to eat a lot of curry - over 100g of turmeric curry powder - to get a clinical dose of curcumin.
She said: "Professor Doraiswamy's unpublished research applies only to animal models; his hypothesis has not been confirmed in human clinical trials.
"We look forward to the results of the human curcumin trial at UCLA."
Dr Susanne Sorensen, of the Alzheimer's Society, said: "Indian communities that regularly eat curcumin have a surprisingly low incidence of Alzheimer's disease but we don't yet know why.
"Alzheimer's Society is keen to explore the potential benefits of curcumin in protecting the brain and we are conducting our own research into this area.
"A cheap, accessible and safe treatment could transform the quality of life of thousands of people with the condition."
The key ingredient appears to be turmeric
Eating a curry once or twice a week could help prevent the onset of Alzheimer's disease and dementia, a US researcher suggests.
The key ingredient is curcumin, a component of the spice turmeric.
Curcumin appears to prevent the spread of amyloid protein plaques - thought to cause dementia - in the brain.
But the theory, presented at the Royal College of Psychiatrists' annual meeting, has been given a lukewarm reception by UK experts.
If you have a good diet and take plenty of exercise, eating curry regularly could help prevent dementia
Professor Murali Doraiswamy
Duke University
Amyloid plaques, along with tangles of nerve fibres, are thought to contribute to the degradation of the wiring in brain cells, eventually leading to symptoms of dementia.
Professor Murali Doraiswamy, of Duke University in North Carolina, said there was evidence that people who eat a curry meal two or three times a week have a lower risk of dementia.
He said researchers were testing the impact of higher doses - the equivalent of going on a curry spree for a week - to see if they could maximise the effect.
Animal studies
Professor Doraiswamy told the meeting: "There is very solid evidence that curcumin binds to plaques, and basic research on animals engineered to produce human amyloid plaques has shown benefits."
"You can modify a mouse so that at about 12 months its brain is riddled with plaques.
"If you feed this rat a curcumin-rich diet it dissolves these plaques. The same diet prevented younger mice from forming new plaques.
"The next step is to test curcumin on human amyloid plaque formation using newer brain scans and there are plans for that."
Professor Doraiswamy said a clinical trial was now underway at the University of California, Los Angeles, to test curcumin's effects in Alzheimer's patients.
He said research had also examined turmeric's therapeutic potential for treating conditions such as cancer and arthritis.
Good diet
He stressed that eating a curry could not counter-balance the increased risk of dementia associated with a poor diet.
Indian communities that regularly eat curcumin have a surprisingly low incidence of Alzheimer's disease but we don't yet know why
Dr Susanne Sorensen
Alzheimer's Society
However, he said: "If you have a good diet and take plenty of exercise, eating curry regularly could help prevent dementia."
Professor Doraiswamy predicted it might be possible to develop a curry pill which had the same therapeutic effect.
However, Rebecca Wood, of the Alzheimer's Research Trust, stressed that people would need to eat a lot of curry - over 100g of turmeric curry powder - to get a clinical dose of curcumin.
She said: "Professor Doraiswamy's unpublished research applies only to animal models; his hypothesis has not been confirmed in human clinical trials.
"We look forward to the results of the human curcumin trial at UCLA."
Dr Susanne Sorensen, of the Alzheimer's Society, said: "Indian communities that regularly eat curcumin have a surprisingly low incidence of Alzheimer's disease but we don't yet know why.
"Alzheimer's Society is keen to explore the potential benefits of curcumin in protecting the brain and we are conducting our own research into this area.
"A cheap, accessible and safe treatment could transform the quality of life of thousands of people with the condition."
Wednesday, June 3, 2009
Holier Than Thou Sikhism is facing an urgent and violent sectarian crisis. Why?
KANWAR SANDHU
Senior Journalist
image
Furious again Dalit Sikhs in Amritsar hold pictures of Guru Sant Ramanand, protesting the Vienna attack
Photo: REUTERS
IN A LITTLE over two years, sectarian violence has engulfed Punjab and certain areas of Haryana for the second time. Hopefully, like the previous incident, this one too will be brought under control. Yet, this once again underlines the explosive nature of the caste divide that permeates Punjab. Recurrence of such incidents at frequent intervals brings back horrendous memories of the late 1970s, when sectarian violence concerning Nirankari sect spiraled a bloody phase of terrorism in the border state.
While two years ago, it was the Sirsa-based Dera Sacha Sauda which was at the centre of the controversy, this time it is the 109-year old Dera Sachkhand Ballan. The provocation for the violence in Punjab was the armed attack on the dera head, Sant Niranjan Dass and his deputy, Sant Ramanand in Vienna, Austria on Sunday (May 24, 2009). The two leaders, who were in Austria to conduct a special service, were attacked by people reportedly affiliated to another Sikh gurdwara in Austria. While Ramanand succumbed to his injuries the following day, Niranjan Dass is recuperating from gunshot wounds in a Vienna hospital.
Though full details of the incident and identity of the attackers is not known, the attack reflects the failure of the Indian diplomatic mission in Austria, which should have been more alive to the simmering differences between Sikh groups in that area. Moreover, in the wake of the possible fallout in Punjab, it should have sounded an alarm back home as soon as the incident took place. Had the government in Punjab been alerted well in time, a curfew could have been imposed in the affected areas on Monday morning. Failure to do so resulted in damage to government property running into several crores.
Although the tenth Guru of the Sikhs, Guru Gobind Singh, who founded the Khalsa, had included all sections of society, including dalits, into the Sikh fold, sectarian divide is most pronounced in Sikhism today. There are more than two dozen sects and nearly a hundred deras who owe allegiance to Sikhism in some form or another, but have their own distinguishing characteristics. Many of them have living Gurus, which is anathema to mainstream Sikhs, who consider the holy book, Guru Granth Sahib as the Guru ordained.
One such sect is Dera Sachkhand, which was originally called Dera Shri 108 Sant Sarwan Dass Ji Maharaj Sachkhand. Its followers (Ravidasi Sikhs) adhere to the teachings of Sant Ravidas, a 15th century untouchable preacher, whose bani (teachings), like that of many other preachers across different religions at the time, form a part of the Guru Granth Sahib. Yet, when discrimination against the dalits continued in gurdwaras, separate Ravidas gurdwaras started surfacing in the middle of the 20th century, where portraits of Guru Ravidas are also displayed. According to one estimate, there are 75 gurdwaras of Ravidasias abroad.
Mainstream Sikhs, especially the radical elements among them, are piqued with the Dera Sachkhand on a number of counts. For instance, most Ravidasias, who do not sport a turban, insist on referring to their places of worship as ‘gurdwaras’, where the Guru Granth Sahib is worshipped. Soon, ideological differences too cropped up when dera followers started believing in a living Guru — Sant Niranjan Dass enjoys that status now — an issue on which Sikhs are extremely touchy. Earlier, differences with Dera Sacha Sauda came to the fore when its head, Ram Rahim Singh was accused by Sikh groups of trying to copy Guru Gobind Singh in dress and form.
Many of the two dozen sects and hundreds of deras have living Gurus, anathema to mainstream Sikhs
Incidentally, the mainstay of most other Sikh deras and sects are either the dalits or the poor. Among the reasons for their mass appeal are the dera-run charitable institutions like hospitals and schools. Since these deras also emphasise education and condemn child marriage and drug abuse, they are seen by the poor as a panacea for their misfortunes. Properties of these sects dot not just Punjab but almost all states in north India. Moreover, they are liberal in the form of Sikhism they practice.
Political observers in Punjab feel that the recent incident should act as a wake-up call to the government and religious organizations like the Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee (SGPC) to start the process of social reconstruction in the state. Late Prof Teja Singh, in his treatise Essays on Sikhism, argued for the need to take all sects into the wider fold of Sikhism. However, this advice had few takers. In the late 1970s, when the Nirankari sect clashed with the Sikh groups, reconciliation efforts were initiated. But they did not fructify.
SGPC has been cagey on initiating reforms for fear of drawing flak from orthodox elements. Also, SGPC leaders feel that any relaxation of the norms on Sikh identity could weaken the Khalsa identity and would result in more people opting out of the form of Sikhism as ordained by the tenth Guru. In fact, a decision on the issue of the Shahajdhari Sikhs being given the same rights as the Keshadhari Sikhs (baptised Sikhs) is pending in the Punjab and Haryana High Court. A girl student, who was denied admission in an SGPC-run medical college for having trimmed her hair, had moved the court.
Widening the schism is the still prevalent separatist tendency among the Sikh diaspora abroad
Another underlying reason for the SGPC’s reluctance to introduce reforms and provide acceptability to other sects is the fear that it could drastically alter the power equation within the SGPC, which acts as a handmaiden of the Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal) in Punjab. They worry that power would slip out of their grip. SGPC is already out of reckoning in Delhi’s gurdwara politics and the demand to have a separate gurdwara body in Haryana too is growing. As Sikhs move to different parts of the world, independent streaks are becoming more pronounced. For example, a gurdwara in Europe has decided to modify the ardas (daily Sikh prayer), which the SGPC leaders resent.
Widening the schism is the continuing separatist tendency among powerful sections of the Sikh diaspora abroad. In many places abroad, especially Canada, gurdwaras are controlled by radical Sikhs. Many left Punjab at the height of militancy when there was a crackdown by the security forces, forcing them to seek political asylum abroad. This includes Canada and a number of European countries. This has a great destabilising factor, especially when there is comparative peace back home in Punjab, as in the recent case.
Fortunately, Punjab has come a long way since its earlier violent phase when politics, both at the Centre and in the state, added fuel to the fire, unmindful of the suicidal repercussions. Now, the UPA government at the Centre and the SAD-BJP government in Punjab appear to have wisened to the fact that if they play with fire, the consequences are dangerous.
WRITER’S EMAIL
sankanwar@gmail.com
Senior Journalist
image
Furious again Dalit Sikhs in Amritsar hold pictures of Guru Sant Ramanand, protesting the Vienna attack
Photo: REUTERS
IN A LITTLE over two years, sectarian violence has engulfed Punjab and certain areas of Haryana for the second time. Hopefully, like the previous incident, this one too will be brought under control. Yet, this once again underlines the explosive nature of the caste divide that permeates Punjab. Recurrence of such incidents at frequent intervals brings back horrendous memories of the late 1970s, when sectarian violence concerning Nirankari sect spiraled a bloody phase of terrorism in the border state.
While two years ago, it was the Sirsa-based Dera Sacha Sauda which was at the centre of the controversy, this time it is the 109-year old Dera Sachkhand Ballan. The provocation for the violence in Punjab was the armed attack on the dera head, Sant Niranjan Dass and his deputy, Sant Ramanand in Vienna, Austria on Sunday (May 24, 2009). The two leaders, who were in Austria to conduct a special service, were attacked by people reportedly affiliated to another Sikh gurdwara in Austria. While Ramanand succumbed to his injuries the following day, Niranjan Dass is recuperating from gunshot wounds in a Vienna hospital.
Though full details of the incident and identity of the attackers is not known, the attack reflects the failure of the Indian diplomatic mission in Austria, which should have been more alive to the simmering differences between Sikh groups in that area. Moreover, in the wake of the possible fallout in Punjab, it should have sounded an alarm back home as soon as the incident took place. Had the government in Punjab been alerted well in time, a curfew could have been imposed in the affected areas on Monday morning. Failure to do so resulted in damage to government property running into several crores.
Although the tenth Guru of the Sikhs, Guru Gobind Singh, who founded the Khalsa, had included all sections of society, including dalits, into the Sikh fold, sectarian divide is most pronounced in Sikhism today. There are more than two dozen sects and nearly a hundred deras who owe allegiance to Sikhism in some form or another, but have their own distinguishing characteristics. Many of them have living Gurus, which is anathema to mainstream Sikhs, who consider the holy book, Guru Granth Sahib as the Guru ordained.
One such sect is Dera Sachkhand, which was originally called Dera Shri 108 Sant Sarwan Dass Ji Maharaj Sachkhand. Its followers (Ravidasi Sikhs) adhere to the teachings of Sant Ravidas, a 15th century untouchable preacher, whose bani (teachings), like that of many other preachers across different religions at the time, form a part of the Guru Granth Sahib. Yet, when discrimination against the dalits continued in gurdwaras, separate Ravidas gurdwaras started surfacing in the middle of the 20th century, where portraits of Guru Ravidas are also displayed. According to one estimate, there are 75 gurdwaras of Ravidasias abroad.
Mainstream Sikhs, especially the radical elements among them, are piqued with the Dera Sachkhand on a number of counts. For instance, most Ravidasias, who do not sport a turban, insist on referring to their places of worship as ‘gurdwaras’, where the Guru Granth Sahib is worshipped. Soon, ideological differences too cropped up when dera followers started believing in a living Guru — Sant Niranjan Dass enjoys that status now — an issue on which Sikhs are extremely touchy. Earlier, differences with Dera Sacha Sauda came to the fore when its head, Ram Rahim Singh was accused by Sikh groups of trying to copy Guru Gobind Singh in dress and form.
Many of the two dozen sects and hundreds of deras have living Gurus, anathema to mainstream Sikhs
Incidentally, the mainstay of most other Sikh deras and sects are either the dalits or the poor. Among the reasons for their mass appeal are the dera-run charitable institutions like hospitals and schools. Since these deras also emphasise education and condemn child marriage and drug abuse, they are seen by the poor as a panacea for their misfortunes. Properties of these sects dot not just Punjab but almost all states in north India. Moreover, they are liberal in the form of Sikhism they practice.
Political observers in Punjab feel that the recent incident should act as a wake-up call to the government and religious organizations like the Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee (SGPC) to start the process of social reconstruction in the state. Late Prof Teja Singh, in his treatise Essays on Sikhism, argued for the need to take all sects into the wider fold of Sikhism. However, this advice had few takers. In the late 1970s, when the Nirankari sect clashed with the Sikh groups, reconciliation efforts were initiated. But they did not fructify.
SGPC has been cagey on initiating reforms for fear of drawing flak from orthodox elements. Also, SGPC leaders feel that any relaxation of the norms on Sikh identity could weaken the Khalsa identity and would result in more people opting out of the form of Sikhism as ordained by the tenth Guru. In fact, a decision on the issue of the Shahajdhari Sikhs being given the same rights as the Keshadhari Sikhs (baptised Sikhs) is pending in the Punjab and Haryana High Court. A girl student, who was denied admission in an SGPC-run medical college for having trimmed her hair, had moved the court.
Widening the schism is the still prevalent separatist tendency among the Sikh diaspora abroad
Another underlying reason for the SGPC’s reluctance to introduce reforms and provide acceptability to other sects is the fear that it could drastically alter the power equation within the SGPC, which acts as a handmaiden of the Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal) in Punjab. They worry that power would slip out of their grip. SGPC is already out of reckoning in Delhi’s gurdwara politics and the demand to have a separate gurdwara body in Haryana too is growing. As Sikhs move to different parts of the world, independent streaks are becoming more pronounced. For example, a gurdwara in Europe has decided to modify the ardas (daily Sikh prayer), which the SGPC leaders resent.
Widening the schism is the continuing separatist tendency among powerful sections of the Sikh diaspora abroad. In many places abroad, especially Canada, gurdwaras are controlled by radical Sikhs. Many left Punjab at the height of militancy when there was a crackdown by the security forces, forcing them to seek political asylum abroad. This includes Canada and a number of European countries. This has a great destabilising factor, especially when there is comparative peace back home in Punjab, as in the recent case.
Fortunately, Punjab has come a long way since its earlier violent phase when politics, both at the Centre and in the state, added fuel to the fire, unmindful of the suicidal repercussions. Now, the UPA government at the Centre and the SAD-BJP government in Punjab appear to have wisened to the fact that if they play with fire, the consequences are dangerous.
WRITER’S EMAIL
sankanwar@gmail.com
Wednesday, May 27, 2009
Monopoly religion & Public Comments
Pratap Bhanu Mehta Posted: Tuesday , May 26, 2009 at 0945 hrs IST
New Delhi:
It is deeply sad that a most gloriously inventive, radical and genuinely pious religious community like the Sikhs now seems to be frequently hostage to a regime of internal intolerance. Not only was this tradition founded on the premise of an astonishing synthesis; it allowed an amazing internal diversity as well. In the nineteenth century, there were a large number of traditions with which Sikhs identified: Khalsa, Nirmala, Udasi, Nanak-Panthi, Nihang, Kalu Panthi, Ram Dasi, Kuka, Nirankari, etc. Now it is fair to say that over the course of the twentieth century this diverse tradition has also succumbed to the cardinal sins any religious tradition can commit: establish a coercive set of monopolies.
The roots of the current conflict that took a murderous turn in Vienna will, in due course be traced to contingent causes. On the face of it, both the violence in Vienna and the violent response in Punjab will turn out to have political overtones. But underlying this conflict is the fact that Sikh identity has been transformed over the course of the twentieth century, often in the direction of internal intolerance.
Some of its followers have succumbed to the idea that there can be only one authoritative interpretation of the tradition, there can be only one authority pronouncing over temporal aspects of the religion, and that both of these monopolies will also be tied to a territorial imagination. The attempt is to monopolise the master narrative of Sikh tradition, to eviscerate its diverse imaginings, and to concentrate power in organisations like the SGPC. You take all of these aspirations, and align them with religious politics and you will get the combustible mix that we are seeing in Punjab.
The blunt truth is that the drive to standardise Sikh identity is the root cause of so many of these troubles. It is not often discussed in public, but there is no getting away from the fact that organised groups within Sikhism, including the SGPC, have served to silence internal criticism within the tradition. Openly challenging authority has become a risky business, and a number of Sikh intellectuals feel under pressure not to challenge the insidious monopolies that are putting the liberal imagination within Sikhism at great risk.
It is a truism that the conditions for generating an enlarged and liberal outlook are less a function of the doctrine of a religion, but more a product of the fragmentation of authority. When any tradition is comfortable with the idea that there is no monopoly over authority, over interpretation, it is more likely to be comfortable with internal dissent. The fragmentation of authority is important for the intellectual vitality of any tradition. But the move in organised Sikhism has often been in the reverse direction: to uphold monopoly over authority and homogeneity of identity at all cost. Unless the tradition comes to terms with this increasing internal intolerance it will remain hostage to violence.
Many religious identities see themselves under siege in the modern world, and are inventing new abstract identifications that do away with the richness of traditions. In that sense Sikhism is not exceptional. But in the Indian context the fact that so much of its authority has been closely linked to politics, complicates its character. Political parties, let alone unfriendly powers, will not hesitate to fish in this political cauldron. It is important that this conflict be contained, and justice done, before it acquires dangerous proportions. And it is important to learn the lesson that monopolies within any religion are dangerous: they generate more conflict. One can only hope that the religion will return to the eternal and limitless verities of the sabda, and not be hijacked by the narcissism of so many little selves.
Comments
Post comment
21 Comments |
Even youngstersBy: emmarcee | Wednesday , 27 May '09 21:51:43 PM Reply | Forward Very good column. You are 100 percent right. I think that Sikhs are taught a version of "infalliability" of Granth just like Quran (or Vatican in yester years). Nobdoy can question what is written. Recently in one of the blogs I found rather laughable assumption that the Historicity of Rama should be true since Grantha/ Guru Nanak said so. One young Sikh was chiding the other for saying Rama could n't have been. Where is the free thought?
Wondeful articleBy: Anshuman Singh | Wednesday , 27 May '09 20:47:20 PM Reply | Forward This article hits the nail on the head. Sikhism was created to be a movement of people of any confession of faith to subscribe to a doctrine of diversity in the path to salvation and universalism. It seems incomprehensively sad to me that a religion that was founded on the concept of in the eyes of God, "there is no Hindu, there is no Muslim" is now trying to define what exactly is a Sikh. A Sikh is any person who professes belief in the Almighty, remembers to make his actions and thoughts pious and truthful, who does not forget his responsibility to those around him regardless of origin, and does not presume to judge who is sinner and who is a saint. Its genuinely sad that a faith built to encourage inter-communal harmony is now suffering at the hands of those who would prefer it to be standardised at the price of intra-communal violence. The ultimate message of Sikhism is the unfathomable mercy of the Divine, and the ability to choose one's actions. Us Sikhs should never forget this.
Religion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! my footBy: astrix | Wednesday , 27 May '09 17:44:25 PM Reply | Forward One solution to all problems plaguing the world today - BAN RELIGION. It does not serve any purpose at all except for inciting intolerence resulting in hatred and culminating into violence. RELIGION IS BAD for mankind. It is the root cause of all evil that exists in society today, and mind you, it is irrespective of any religion since poison by any name is poison ultimately. I urge to one and all, stop fooling yourself in the name of religion, it doesn't take you anywhere.
All religions by their definition are monopolistic and intolerant.By: Suvi Cyriac Nadakluzhackal | Wednesday , 27 May '09 15:25:15 PM Reply | Forward How else can they bring in more members and money in to their hands?
Reply to op73By: Sameer | Wednesday , 27 May '09 14:26:59 PM Reply | Forward RSS
Rising Religious Intolerance in IndiaBy: Dr. Ankeshwar Prakash | Wednesday , 27 May '09 11:37:57 AM Reply | Forward I think that it is not merely a problem of existence of caste system, rather it is a problem of rising religious intolerance in the minds of only a few people belonging to a particular community. The solution lies in honest introspection by such people. Further both central and state governments should have handled the issue carefully. Due to the involvement of religious sentiments, the governments should have been proactive rather than reactive. Guilty people, from whichever community they are, shoud be punished and brought to justice.
Read the best book on Sikh identity politics by Harjot Singh OberoiBy: op73 | Wednesday , 27 May '09 7:57:21 AM Reply | Forward The finest book on the subject discussed by Mehta is Harjot Singh Oberoi's THE CONSTRUCTION OF RELIGIOUS BOUNDARIES, which reveals the huge diversity within Sikh traditions that was stamped out by Khalsa Sikhism. Oberoi was hounded into silence for revealing this historical truth. The fact is that the monopoly of the Sikh Panth now is no different from the BJP's effort to monopolize the existing diversity of Hindu traditions.
Carry on the good work!By: Jayadevan | Wednesday , 27 May '09 7:49:54 AM Reply | Forward The very idea of speaking the words "religion" and "tolerance" with the same breath is ludicrous. Organized religion is an excellent way to acquire power - can we imagine the beneficiaries ever tolerating competition? The fact that reactions of this sort - the attack in Vienna - come from the Jat Sikhs is only incidental, they were the people whose position was being threatened. All religions have used every method in the lexicon to wipe out competition - they only needed to have the opportunity and the power. That this sort of confrontationism also serves to cement the hold of a highly corrupt priesthood is a fringe benefit. If there were no Shias or Nirankaris, they would have to be invented. Fortunately, there is always an unending supply of fools who know nothing about theology or philosophy and mistake symbols for the actual thing to commit the next horror. It would seem difficult to make the human race extinct, but God did provide a destruct button - stupidity.
Monopoly religion????By: Dr.G.Srinivasan | Wednesday , 27 May '09 6:40:16 AM Reply | Forward This happened in all religions Sikhism is no exception
Except Islam no other Religion is a very near success in eliminating castes,By: naufulamhu | Wednesday , 27 May '09 5:06:34 AM Reply | Forward I am naive and ignorant, I was under the impression that Sikhism brought a great revolution in Hinduism by abolishing the four traditional castes and hundreds of other sub-castes. Only today I understand that Cates do exist in Sikhism as it does exist in my country Sri Lanka among the Buddhists. Low caste people like us are not allowed entry into some of the Buddhist temples. Did religious conversion bring the revolution of caste-less religion?( Where are you Dr. Ambethcar) It appeared to do so in the case of Hindus converting to Christianity. But that is also wrong. Very many high caste Hindus Christians proudly add their Hindu Caste names after their Christian names such as Margaret Mudaliar, James, Sylvia, Mary, etc and in some places there are separate Burial grounds for low caste Christians, but in the case of Sri Lankan Islam and in Tamil Nadu, Muslims who used to belong to various Hindu Castes, have totally got rid of their Hindu Caste identity,, this is a real revolution
Issue is with tolerance, on Dalit side as wellBy: Navdeep Bajwa | Wednesday , 27 May '09 3:50:08 AM Reply | Forward Seems like the whole media is vilifying the higher caste sikhs for not being tolerant. The issue here is with "GURU MANYO GRANTH". Sikhs do not regard a livcing person as a guru, the holy book is the guru. THe ravidasis use the holy book but consider a living person as a guru. That is what causes this issue. Why cant tolerance be taught to ravidasis to understand this and show respect to the sikh traditions as well. A simil;ar issue caused the Nirankari problem in 80's as well and we know how that was politically and socially exploited.
Reader CommentBy: rohitchandavarker | Tuesday , 26 May '09 17:02:00 PM Reply | Forward The simmering discontent within the Sikh community resulted in this senseless violence.The reasons are manifold but the underlying reason is the chasm between the affluent sections
Guru Nanak Devji must be crying nowBy: Rajdeep | Tuesday , 26 May '09 15:56:52 PM Reply | Forward Great Guru Nanak Devji fought all his life against mindless rituals and symbolism in religion and today his followers kill somebody because he was sitting with the holy book Adi Granth instead of a notch lower. How stupid one can go on these things, some times back they were trying to kill some one else because he was dressed as Guru Govind Singhji. All the problems of rituals and castism that were cleaned by these Ten Gurus are now a days back in modern day Sikhism. Its time we all read and interpret the Adi Granth an japji Sahab once again and start the clean up act.
Business of expansion of the neo gurusBy: shantam i singh | Tuesday , 26 May '09 15:55:47 PM Reply | Forward Sikh masters and their contempraries have made religion free from the cluches of elite of their time. They have given immense importance to the idea of finding a living guru. This freedom to choose create the markets of gurus. Problem arises when these kiosk holder gurus cross the limits of their porfession. Just imagine you are a show room holder and a street seller start selling his things in your shop. What you will do? The same Sikhs are doing with this particular guru, otherwise hundreds of other deras are doing their business in their way.
Folks first try to get facts rightBy: Gurpreet Sandhu | Tuesday , 26 May '09 15:45:28 PM Reply | Forward The case here is that of one sect who call themselves ‘Ravidasis’
Monopoly ReligionBy: Parminder Singh | Tuesday , 26 May '09 14:56:31 PM Reply | Forward Sikhism tolerates all religions. It is borne out by the fact that Shabads of Hindu, Muslim Saints find a place in Guru Granth Sahibji. Nobody can deny the fact that saints like Kabir, Farid, Dhana, Tirlochan, Bhatts,Ramanand etc. did not belong to high castes. Nowhere in the Guru Granth Sahib there is preaching that Hindus/ Muslims should give up their religion. The advice to them is to be true Hindus/Muslims. Sikhs do not worship Idols, but they do not break them. Ravi Das is one of the saints whose Bani finds a respectable place in Sri Guru Granth Sahibji. However, nobody, including saints of other sects/ faiths/ deras have a right to either misinterpret or show disrespect to Guru Granth Sahib or the Sikh tradition/ teachings. If they want to charter a different line of thought, so be it. Let them have their holy book, place of worship, etc.
Folks first try to get facts rightBy: Gurpreet Sandhu | Tuesday , 26 May '09 14:27:05 PM Reply | Forward The case here is that of one sect who call themselves ‘Ravidasis’
Caste system in IndiaBy: Raman Mittal | Tuesday , 26 May '09 13:27:26 PM Reply | Forward Caste is a factor which is age old in India and refuses to die--come what may. Irrespective of religion, the caste system rises again and again and refuses to die. Nanak, Kabir, Sufis, Ramakrishna, missionaries, Constitution may have shown the door to caste based practices, but still it enters from back door. It appears the caste system is so deep rooted in Indian milieu that it is almost impossible to get rid of it. So, let us learn to live with it.
commentBy: santosh | Tuesday , 26 May '09 11:38:48 AM Reply | Forward who owns the religion?
Monopoly religionBy: MOHAN DADDIKAR | Tuesday , 26 May '09 11:29:51 AM Reply | Forward Sikhs, though deeply religious are generally a tolernat and peace-loving community. They are modern in outlook and proressive in soial reforms.But nowadays they are aping the Muslims in all spheres of human relations. So even waaring a turban has bccome a symbol of aggressive Sikhism. I reauest the Sikh commnunity to return to their age-old tolerance and love for peace and stop becoming like Muslims.
It was not the 6 people, it was a philosophyBy: T R Suman | Tuesday , 26 May '09 10:52:25 AM Reply | Forward This was not just an emotional killing of Sant Ramanand by 6 antisocial elements. This has lot to with the growing intollerence in the modern day Sikhism. A religion whose roots get watered from the respect to every religion. But the so called custodians of sikhism want to interpret the things the way they want and not the way they are. They want evry sub section of sikhism to follow there line. They can't digest the rise of so called lower caste sikhs or whatever they call them. They always forget that all of us are living in a free democratic society where everybody has it fundamental right to follow any religion in his own way. The difinition of a particular religion by a particular section is not binding to everybody. Things will get normal in the course of time but one thing is bound to happen. The social landscape of punjab has changed for ever.
New Delhi:
It is deeply sad that a most gloriously inventive, radical and genuinely pious religious community like the Sikhs now seems to be frequently hostage to a regime of internal intolerance. Not only was this tradition founded on the premise of an astonishing synthesis; it allowed an amazing internal diversity as well. In the nineteenth century, there were a large number of traditions with which Sikhs identified: Khalsa, Nirmala, Udasi, Nanak-Panthi, Nihang, Kalu Panthi, Ram Dasi, Kuka, Nirankari, etc. Now it is fair to say that over the course of the twentieth century this diverse tradition has also succumbed to the cardinal sins any religious tradition can commit: establish a coercive set of monopolies.
The roots of the current conflict that took a murderous turn in Vienna will, in due course be traced to contingent causes. On the face of it, both the violence in Vienna and the violent response in Punjab will turn out to have political overtones. But underlying this conflict is the fact that Sikh identity has been transformed over the course of the twentieth century, often in the direction of internal intolerance.
Some of its followers have succumbed to the idea that there can be only one authoritative interpretation of the tradition, there can be only one authority pronouncing over temporal aspects of the religion, and that both of these monopolies will also be tied to a territorial imagination. The attempt is to monopolise the master narrative of Sikh tradition, to eviscerate its diverse imaginings, and to concentrate power in organisations like the SGPC. You take all of these aspirations, and align them with religious politics and you will get the combustible mix that we are seeing in Punjab.
The blunt truth is that the drive to standardise Sikh identity is the root cause of so many of these troubles. It is not often discussed in public, but there is no getting away from the fact that organised groups within Sikhism, including the SGPC, have served to silence internal criticism within the tradition. Openly challenging authority has become a risky business, and a number of Sikh intellectuals feel under pressure not to challenge the insidious monopolies that are putting the liberal imagination within Sikhism at great risk.
It is a truism that the conditions for generating an enlarged and liberal outlook are less a function of the doctrine of a religion, but more a product of the fragmentation of authority. When any tradition is comfortable with the idea that there is no monopoly over authority, over interpretation, it is more likely to be comfortable with internal dissent. The fragmentation of authority is important for the intellectual vitality of any tradition. But the move in organised Sikhism has often been in the reverse direction: to uphold monopoly over authority and homogeneity of identity at all cost. Unless the tradition comes to terms with this increasing internal intolerance it will remain hostage to violence.
Many religious identities see themselves under siege in the modern world, and are inventing new abstract identifications that do away with the richness of traditions. In that sense Sikhism is not exceptional. But in the Indian context the fact that so much of its authority has been closely linked to politics, complicates its character. Political parties, let alone unfriendly powers, will not hesitate to fish in this political cauldron. It is important that this conflict be contained, and justice done, before it acquires dangerous proportions. And it is important to learn the lesson that monopolies within any religion are dangerous: they generate more conflict. One can only hope that the religion will return to the eternal and limitless verities of the sabda, and not be hijacked by the narcissism of so many little selves.
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21 Comments |
Even youngstersBy: emmarcee | Wednesday , 27 May '09 21:51:43 PM Reply | Forward Very good column. You are 100 percent right. I think that Sikhs are taught a version of "infalliability" of Granth just like Quran (or Vatican in yester years). Nobdoy can question what is written. Recently in one of the blogs I found rather laughable assumption that the Historicity of Rama should be true since Grantha/ Guru Nanak said so. One young Sikh was chiding the other for saying Rama could n't have been. Where is the free thought?
Wondeful articleBy: Anshuman Singh | Wednesday , 27 May '09 20:47:20 PM Reply | Forward This article hits the nail on the head. Sikhism was created to be a movement of people of any confession of faith to subscribe to a doctrine of diversity in the path to salvation and universalism. It seems incomprehensively sad to me that a religion that was founded on the concept of in the eyes of God, "there is no Hindu, there is no Muslim" is now trying to define what exactly is a Sikh. A Sikh is any person who professes belief in the Almighty, remembers to make his actions and thoughts pious and truthful, who does not forget his responsibility to those around him regardless of origin, and does not presume to judge who is sinner and who is a saint. Its genuinely sad that a faith built to encourage inter-communal harmony is now suffering at the hands of those who would prefer it to be standardised at the price of intra-communal violence. The ultimate message of Sikhism is the unfathomable mercy of the Divine, and the ability to choose one's actions. Us Sikhs should never forget this.
Religion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! my footBy: astrix | Wednesday , 27 May '09 17:44:25 PM Reply | Forward One solution to all problems plaguing the world today - BAN RELIGION. It does not serve any purpose at all except for inciting intolerence resulting in hatred and culminating into violence. RELIGION IS BAD for mankind. It is the root cause of all evil that exists in society today, and mind you, it is irrespective of any religion since poison by any name is poison ultimately. I urge to one and all, stop fooling yourself in the name of religion, it doesn't take you anywhere.
All religions by their definition are monopolistic and intolerant.By: Suvi Cyriac Nadakluzhackal | Wednesday , 27 May '09 15:25:15 PM Reply | Forward How else can they bring in more members and money in to their hands?
Reply to op73By: Sameer | Wednesday , 27 May '09 14:26:59 PM Reply | Forward RSS
Rising Religious Intolerance in IndiaBy: Dr. Ankeshwar Prakash | Wednesday , 27 May '09 11:37:57 AM Reply | Forward I think that it is not merely a problem of existence of caste system, rather it is a problem of rising religious intolerance in the minds of only a few people belonging to a particular community. The solution lies in honest introspection by such people. Further both central and state governments should have handled the issue carefully. Due to the involvement of religious sentiments, the governments should have been proactive rather than reactive. Guilty people, from whichever community they are, shoud be punished and brought to justice.
Read the best book on Sikh identity politics by Harjot Singh OberoiBy: op73 | Wednesday , 27 May '09 7:57:21 AM Reply | Forward The finest book on the subject discussed by Mehta is Harjot Singh Oberoi's THE CONSTRUCTION OF RELIGIOUS BOUNDARIES, which reveals the huge diversity within Sikh traditions that was stamped out by Khalsa Sikhism. Oberoi was hounded into silence for revealing this historical truth. The fact is that the monopoly of the Sikh Panth now is no different from the BJP's effort to monopolize the existing diversity of Hindu traditions.
Carry on the good work!By: Jayadevan | Wednesday , 27 May '09 7:49:54 AM Reply | Forward The very idea of speaking the words "religion" and "tolerance" with the same breath is ludicrous. Organized religion is an excellent way to acquire power - can we imagine the beneficiaries ever tolerating competition? The fact that reactions of this sort - the attack in Vienna - come from the Jat Sikhs is only incidental, they were the people whose position was being threatened. All religions have used every method in the lexicon to wipe out competition - they only needed to have the opportunity and the power. That this sort of confrontationism also serves to cement the hold of a highly corrupt priesthood is a fringe benefit. If there were no Shias or Nirankaris, they would have to be invented. Fortunately, there is always an unending supply of fools who know nothing about theology or philosophy and mistake symbols for the actual thing to commit the next horror. It would seem difficult to make the human race extinct, but God did provide a destruct button - stupidity.
Monopoly religion????By: Dr.G.Srinivasan | Wednesday , 27 May '09 6:40:16 AM Reply | Forward This happened in all religions Sikhism is no exception
Except Islam no other Religion is a very near success in eliminating castes,By: naufulamhu | Wednesday , 27 May '09 5:06:34 AM Reply | Forward I am naive and ignorant, I was under the impression that Sikhism brought a great revolution in Hinduism by abolishing the four traditional castes and hundreds of other sub-castes. Only today I understand that Cates do exist in Sikhism as it does exist in my country Sri Lanka among the Buddhists. Low caste people like us are not allowed entry into some of the Buddhist temples. Did religious conversion bring the revolution of caste-less religion?( Where are you Dr. Ambethcar) It appeared to do so in the case of Hindus converting to Christianity. But that is also wrong. Very many high caste Hindus Christians proudly add their Hindu Caste names after their Christian names such as Margaret Mudaliar, James, Sylvia, Mary, etc and in some places there are separate Burial grounds for low caste Christians, but in the case of Sri Lankan Islam and in Tamil Nadu, Muslims who used to belong to various Hindu Castes, have totally got rid of their Hindu Caste identity,, this is a real revolution
Issue is with tolerance, on Dalit side as wellBy: Navdeep Bajwa | Wednesday , 27 May '09 3:50:08 AM Reply | Forward Seems like the whole media is vilifying the higher caste sikhs for not being tolerant. The issue here is with "GURU MANYO GRANTH". Sikhs do not regard a livcing person as a guru, the holy book is the guru. THe ravidasis use the holy book but consider a living person as a guru. That is what causes this issue. Why cant tolerance be taught to ravidasis to understand this and show respect to the sikh traditions as well. A simil;ar issue caused the Nirankari problem in 80's as well and we know how that was politically and socially exploited.
Reader CommentBy: rohitchandavarker | Tuesday , 26 May '09 17:02:00 PM Reply | Forward The simmering discontent within the Sikh community resulted in this senseless violence.The reasons are manifold but the underlying reason is the chasm between the affluent sections
Guru Nanak Devji must be crying nowBy: Rajdeep | Tuesday , 26 May '09 15:56:52 PM Reply | Forward Great Guru Nanak Devji fought all his life against mindless rituals and symbolism in religion and today his followers kill somebody because he was sitting with the holy book Adi Granth instead of a notch lower. How stupid one can go on these things, some times back they were trying to kill some one else because he was dressed as Guru Govind Singhji. All the problems of rituals and castism that were cleaned by these Ten Gurus are now a days back in modern day Sikhism. Its time we all read and interpret the Adi Granth an japji Sahab once again and start the clean up act.
Business of expansion of the neo gurusBy: shantam i singh | Tuesday , 26 May '09 15:55:47 PM Reply | Forward Sikh masters and their contempraries have made religion free from the cluches of elite of their time. They have given immense importance to the idea of finding a living guru. This freedom to choose create the markets of gurus. Problem arises when these kiosk holder gurus cross the limits of their porfession. Just imagine you are a show room holder and a street seller start selling his things in your shop. What you will do? The same Sikhs are doing with this particular guru, otherwise hundreds of other deras are doing their business in their way.
Folks first try to get facts rightBy: Gurpreet Sandhu | Tuesday , 26 May '09 15:45:28 PM Reply | Forward The case here is that of one sect who call themselves ‘Ravidasis’
Monopoly ReligionBy: Parminder Singh | Tuesday , 26 May '09 14:56:31 PM Reply | Forward Sikhism tolerates all religions. It is borne out by the fact that Shabads of Hindu, Muslim Saints find a place in Guru Granth Sahibji. Nobody can deny the fact that saints like Kabir, Farid, Dhana, Tirlochan, Bhatts,Ramanand etc. did not belong to high castes. Nowhere in the Guru Granth Sahib there is preaching that Hindus/ Muslims should give up their religion. The advice to them is to be true Hindus/Muslims. Sikhs do not worship Idols, but they do not break them. Ravi Das is one of the saints whose Bani finds a respectable place in Sri Guru Granth Sahibji. However, nobody, including saints of other sects/ faiths/ deras have a right to either misinterpret or show disrespect to Guru Granth Sahib or the Sikh tradition/ teachings. If they want to charter a different line of thought, so be it. Let them have their holy book, place of worship, etc.
Folks first try to get facts rightBy: Gurpreet Sandhu | Tuesday , 26 May '09 14:27:05 PM Reply | Forward The case here is that of one sect who call themselves ‘Ravidasis’
Caste system in IndiaBy: Raman Mittal | Tuesday , 26 May '09 13:27:26 PM Reply | Forward Caste is a factor which is age old in India and refuses to die--come what may. Irrespective of religion, the caste system rises again and again and refuses to die. Nanak, Kabir, Sufis, Ramakrishna, missionaries, Constitution may have shown the door to caste based practices, but still it enters from back door. It appears the caste system is so deep rooted in Indian milieu that it is almost impossible to get rid of it. So, let us learn to live with it.
commentBy: santosh | Tuesday , 26 May '09 11:38:48 AM Reply | Forward who owns the religion?
Monopoly religionBy: MOHAN DADDIKAR | Tuesday , 26 May '09 11:29:51 AM Reply | Forward Sikhs, though deeply religious are generally a tolernat and peace-loving community. They are modern in outlook and proressive in soial reforms.But nowadays they are aping the Muslims in all spheres of human relations. So even waaring a turban has bccome a symbol of aggressive Sikhism. I reauest the Sikh commnunity to return to their age-old tolerance and love for peace and stop becoming like Muslims.
It was not the 6 people, it was a philosophyBy: T R Suman | Tuesday , 26 May '09 10:52:25 AM Reply | Forward This was not just an emotional killing of Sant Ramanand by 6 antisocial elements. This has lot to with the growing intollerence in the modern day Sikhism. A religion whose roots get watered from the respect to every religion. But the so called custodians of sikhism want to interpret the things the way they want and not the way they are. They want evry sub section of sikhism to follow there line. They can't digest the rise of so called lower caste sikhs or whatever they call them. They always forget that all of us are living in a free democratic society where everybody has it fundamental right to follow any religion in his own way. The difinition of a particular religion by a particular section is not binding to everybody. Things will get normal in the course of time but one thing is bound to happen. The social landscape of punjab has changed for ever.
Tuesday, May 19, 2009
Public Platform : India's Challenges
1.
All Editors' Selections » EDITORS' SELECTIONS (what's this?)
May 19, 2009 7:03 am
Link
Several comments regarding your editorial on what India should do in regards to Pakistan. You are right, India showed remarkable restraint in not attacking Pakistan after the Mumbai attack. Especially since the Indian government believes that elements of the Pakistani army/intelligence were involved. In addition, your paper reported sources in the US intelligence organization that Pakistan's ISI was involved in the attack on the Indian embassy in Kabul that killed two senior Indian officials.
Even if US aid is not used directly to build Pakistani nukes, money is fungible, and the resources freed up by the aid will be used by the Pakistani's to build nukes.
So to ask India to unilaterally stop developing additional nuclear material and to go into arms control talks with Pakistan and China is unrealistic. Do you really think that China wants to have arms control discussions? China is a major security concern for India and the US. India's military calculus is more centered on China than Pakistan. Your proposal is a non-starter.
As far as Kashmir is concerned, India would have agreed to converting the current Line of Control as the International border. That is the only pragmatic solution. There are several precedents to this. Bengal was divided between India and East Pakistan. Punjab was divided between India and West Pakistan and Pashtunistan was divided by the Durand line. Pakistani leaders have come close to accepting such a deal in the past but unfortunately have been overtaken by events in their own country before consummating the deal.
The reason that there is a strong presence of the Indian army near the Pakistani border is to prevent infiltration by terrorists from Pakistan. Often under cover fire from the Pakistani army. Every week there are reports in the Indian press of pitched battles as the Indian forces try and stop the terrorists from entering India. Do you really think that any Indian government can order its military to withdraw from the border while terrorists are entering on a regular basis.
The only way the US Af-Pak strategy will work is if the ruling elite in Pakistan (i.e. the Army ) finally realize that it is not in their best interests to keep India as the bogeyman. Until now, the demonizing of India has allowed the Pakistani army to control Pakistan. Like some one correctly said, Most countries have an army while in Pakistan the army has a country. That calculus will have to change for the Pakistani elite. India getting stronger v.vs. Pakistan will help that cause not the other way around as your editorial suggests.
— Sanjiv, San Jose, CA
Recommend Recommended by 43 Readers
2.
All Editors' Selections » EDITORS' SELECTIONS (what's this?)
May 19, 2009 7:09 am
Link
It is commendable to exhort India to show regional leadership because of the stable mandate. However - Pakistan's nuclear activities have little correlation to whether India shows leadership or not. Just because its a next door neighbor does not make India a big brother to Pakistan. Pakistan's big brother has always been the United States - and her nuclear activities and stability are directly correlated to US policies and funding. In fact, many of the suggestions made in this editorial have already been pursued ad nauseum by India with different Pakistani regimes - yielding very limited results. Kashmir has had democratically elected government for quite a while now. Asking India to "resolve" the Kashmir issue without specifying what the resolution is expected in this editorial makes it a very weak argument. India has lots of other challenges besides Pakistan that could have been addressed in this editorial. Trust me - Pakistan's nuclear activities were hardly in the Indian voter's mind when they were selecting one party over another.
Both the title and contents of this editorial are misleading. But I agree that the concern is genuine.
If there's a key to changing things in Pakistan one way or the other, it lies with the United States - and that mandate was given not last week - but on November 4th, 2008. I hope we see a game changer there.
— Susmit, PA
Recommend Recommended by 30 Readers
3.
May 19, 2009 7:12 am
Link
You are not making any practical sense when you come up with these kinds of editorials. India has two main challenges..reducing poverty and keeping itself safe from the insanity around it. Arms control talks with Pakistan and China? Where's the US in all of this? India has to make Pakistan happy over Kashmir so Pakistan can do the US bidding? Stop unilaterally refining nuclear fuel when its surrounded by China and Pakistan, two of the worlds biggest proliferators?
Come one guys. Get a modicum of common sense before you come up with this kind of stuff. Its laughable.
— gr, Glenview, Il
Recommend Recommended by 44 Readers
4.
May 19, 2009 7:12 am
Link
History is testament to the fact that the United States has been on the wrong, short-sighted, self-serving path when it comes to the subcontinent. As a result, Pakistan is now a pathethic caricature of a client state. Its leaders have been reduced to barricading themselves from the extremists in their palaces whilst at home and shamelessly begging for unaccounted aid when abroad. India has taken a different path and must continue on it. Relationship with the United States is important but comes at a great cost. India must do what is in its own best interests, develop its own foreign relationships and defend its own self interests. It can not, and must not, reduce itself to being a pawn on a global chessboard as its neighbor has.
— Nuz2Me, Utah
Recommend Recommended by 26 Readers
5.
May 19, 2009 7:12 am
Link
Does India really need advice from the editors at the New York Times ? For that matter, do they need advice from anyone in the west?
From what I read, Indians still believe in hard work, free markets and capitalism. Maybe we should be taking advice from them.
— m. jones, nm
Recommend Recommended by 28 Readers
6.
May 19, 2009 7:12 am
Link
You guys mess up with every one and others have to take responsibility. You should probably stop being selfish and develop a human heart.
— Suresh, India
Recommend Recommended by 13 Readers
7.
May 19, 2009 7:12 am
Link
As long as this idea is being shoved down Pakistan's throat that India is the dominant power and Pakistan needs to submit to their leadership in the region, nothing can be resolved.
You talk about India's "constructive" role in Afghanistan. For Pakistan it is very suspicious why India being a country with no cultural or geographic affinity with Afghanistan is being allowed to have a dominant role there. On the other hand Pakistan which has a 2200 km long border with that country and a significant population which has cultural affinity with Afghanistan is being used with no regard to its own strategic interests.
I think the idea is very clear here. Pakistan is being encircled to fall in line with India's regional leadership role with the ultimate objective of countering China. The problem with the plan is that Pakistan is getting nothing in return and it is being left to India's goodwill to solve all mutual disputes. This kind of plan can easily backfire because although Pakistan is smaller than India, it is not insignificant.
I think it would behove the US to try and deal with Pakistan seperately from India in a way that takes into account Pakistan's interests also. That is the only way of dealing with this situation in fair manner.
— SAM, CA
Recommend Recommended by 3 Readers
8.
May 19, 2009 7:12 am
Link
How can you deal with a state based on religion which preaches hatred of other religions? Until Pakistan gives up it's religious bigotry, accepts both pluralism and democracy, there is no hope for Pakistan. India might as well ask "Am I brother's keeper?"
— V.R.Anil Kumar, Mysore, India
Recommend Recommended by 23 Readers
9.
May 19, 2009 7:12 am
Link
Pakistan is only sane to fear India. With India greatly expanding its conventional as well as nuclear capabilities, build more nuclear bombs is the only way Pakistan can balance India off. In terms of military buildup, there is no significant difference between India and Pakistan. Both are very poor countries in terms of living standard of their people, but both are spending disproportionally on arms. They created real fear and contempt toward each other, because they let pride get in the way and can not master pragmatism. India was colonized by the British for a long time, that damaged their self-confidence. India need a bold leader to turn their national psyche around, but sadly, we have not seen one in the past 50 years.
As for Pakistan, India and China to get together to negotiate arms control. This is just wishful thinking. The U.S. is directly and indirectly arming India as part of "League of Democracy" to contain China; China is arming Pakistan directly and indirectly as a way to squeeze India. Those relationship are deeply entangled. Without a grand bargain that also involve the shape of U.S.-China relations, south Asia will not see true tranquility in a long time to come.
— horsham, north carolina
Recommend Recommended by 5 Readers
10.
May 19, 2009 7:12 am
Link
Asking India to negotiate with Pakistan is like asking Israel to negotiate with Iran - we don't hear that from you a lot, do we? Did United States negotiate with Iraq or Al Queda? Pakistan's nukes have only one purpose - to destroy Hindu civilization when it goes down.
— TruthPrevails, Mumbai, India
Recommend Recommended by 30 Readers
11.
May 19, 2009 7:12 am
Link
It is a fantasy to think a parliamentary-elected govt. could take a leadership role. Each member of the parliament is loyal to its special interests and.or ethnic group. Parliament-elected govts. are weak. They are the whips that the U.S. and more stable dictatorships like Iran crack.
— Lee Walker, Oakland, CA
Recommend Recommended by 4 Readers
12.
May 19, 2009 7:12 am
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Yeah. Right. You keep pumping billions of dollars, and selling fighter jets to a crazed Muslim country with no history of democracy or even stability; that has nukes it cannot or barely control; cannot effectively control its own regions; whose army intelligence apparatus is autonomous of the government --
and then not just advocate India to show restraint -- which by the way it shows in ample measure, but to complain that it has not done enough?!!
What hutzpah!
— krish, SF Bay Area, CA
Recommend Recommended by 41 Readers
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May 19, 2009 7:12 am
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You are right - it is high time India solve the Kashmir issue by forcing Pakistan to vacate part of Kashmir it illegally grabbed in 1948. Pakistan can't control its own territory, how can it govern the land it illegally grabbed? India should take back its own country and do a better job than Pakistan.
Also to solve problem of terrorism, India should pull another Bangladesh on Pakistan. US has pampered and spoilt Pakistan for a long time and India had to bear the brunt of terrorism eminating from Pakistan. Even now US is following the same misguided policies. So let US wollow in its own ignorance and wishful thinking. By breaking Pakistan in four countries and spliting the army, the problem of terrorism will be solved once and for all.
— umok, WA
Recommend Recommended by 12 Readers
14.
May 19, 2009 7:12 am
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Article:"Trying to keep up to 100 bombs from extremists is hard enough"
Every reader should remember the there were thousands of nuclear bombs in the hands of extremists for eight years, starting January 20th, 2001. Recall all the talk about from that administration about "needing" to use nuclear bombs as bunker-busters in Iraq. We almost became the third nation to use nuclear weapons, as well as the first and second such nation.
— Ken Belcher, Chicago
Recommend Recommended by 9 Readers
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May 19, 2009 7:12 am
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I agree. India must tell Pakistan that it has no intention to conquer or de-stabilize Pakistan. As widely felt in India, a vibrant and secular Pakistan is good for India as well. As an ordinary Indian citizen, I would want Pakistan to prosper on all fronts and develop tolerance for people of other faiths. If it happens, India will be at peace as well. With China, India competes in economic activity. It should not have any aspiration to counter China militarily. Because if it does, it would drain its already scarce resources which it should deploy in development and welfare of its people.
India must sign NPT. One nuclear bomb or 100 would not give security enough to any nation. In a nuclear war nobody wins. She should not support any nation that has nuclear ambitions and if possible destroy all its nuclear weapons. Even if Pakistan nukes India, nuking Pakistan will be act of revenge and destruction of common man, and what would we have achieved in the end?I am not saying do not protect yourself. But nuclear weapons are no means to achieve security. Besides, there won't be any invasion at nation's level anymore. All wars currently are low intensity conflicts. So we don't need nuclear weapons.
Kashmir can be made independent if Kashmiris of all faiths are part of it and want independence. Just Muslims and not Pandits desiring so, would not enable any peace process to reach its end. Pakistan should also ask for an inclusive Kashmir that has Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus unlike herself, where ethnic cleansing has been going on for the past 60 years.
Finally, India should control its extreme right. We were always a peace loving and a spiritual nation. Let us retain that image and move towards economic prosperity.
— dram48, Bangalore, India
Recommend Recommended by 7 Readers
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May 19, 2009 7:12 am
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This is Washington's prescription for India for Washington's own good. This is the line which Obama administration would expect India to toe. Whether these policy reccomendations are in India's interests needs to be debated. Washington has been seen as a Pakistani crony in India and the perception there is that Washington has ignored all of Pakistan's past sins, co-habited with China and spawned regional terrorism. The very fact that Washington has been unable to curb Pakistan's nuclear programme is reason enough to believe that the Obama administration is failing to use its leverage in Pakistan and Afghanistan. America cannot afford an indifferent India which is also assidously being courted by the Chinese too. Ignoring India may just mean that the powershift to China may happen a lot sooner.
— James Baker, Toronto, Canada
Recommend Recommended by 21 Readers
17.
May 19, 2009 7:12 am
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Maybe the US should lead the way by cutting off billions of dollars of its own taxpayers dollars sent as aid to Pakistan that is ultimately used to fund terrorist training camps and purchase nuclear weapons. An American professor I know still finds the ignorance of US representatives in Pakistan about the perils of giving billions of dollars to any hand that is stretched out, unbelievable. He was called in by the USAID head in Islamabad to give a briefing about what to do with the cash pile that organization was sitting on. She had no idea what was going on in the country and was giving away funds to anyone who approached her. Maybe you should send people who have some knowledge about the ground realities there.
— Skasster, India
Recommend Recommended by 14 Readers
18.
May 19, 2009 7:12 am
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The possibility of good India-Pakistan relationship is far from being practical! Past experiences have shown that Pakistan government (or to be precise, Pakistani military!) can't be trusted! It is just that they thrive on propagating a sense of hatred towards their secular neighbour.So the government in India can do absolutely nothing about it!( But they won't admit it!!)
— ranjan, india
Recommend Recommended by 11 Readers
19.
May 19, 2009 7:12 am
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While the spirit of the article is acceptable, the tone leaves a lot desired. Pakistan gets billions of dollars in military aid while India gets sermons. What kind of logic is this?
Yes Pakistani citizens and civil society is suffering and that has to change. Also India and Pakistan can live together with harmony as there are many concerns that are common to both countries. Pakistan has a huge responsibility in making this happen. How come the economy of Pakistan is in doldrums yet they find resources to expand their nuclear arsenal and for what purpose? In the name of assisting Pakistan in fighting Taliban, looks like US creating another Frankenstein's monster in South Asia. US should not absolve itself of its moral responsibility in the damage it is causing by continuously pouring money into Pakistan without demanding and ensuring accountability.
Looks like even Obama is also gradually subscribing to the myopic approach that US embraced for the last four decades vis-a-vis India and Pakistan. India needs no sympathy from US. It needs US to be fair and firm in its dealings with Pakistan and India. Looks like this is not going to happen
— Vish, UK
Recommend Recommended by 21 Readers
20.
May 19, 2009 7:12 am
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There is nothing India can do in Pakistan. They are a lot that grew up on poison fed daily that "Hindu" India is going to get them eventhough is Pakistan that started three wars. Pakistan can only validate its existence by proving that a multicultural multireligious India is not feasible. And there are its partners..us and China pumping billions and arming them to the teeth despite knowing that they help Al Qaeda and Taliban will be nourished.
Funny reading this editorial-- our government is contemplating billions more aid, and at the same time asking that India refrain! Why? So that the "freedom fighters" won't send another plane to New York? Are Indian lives cheap?
Throughout history, we seem to have sided with despots and dictators. When will we change? If you believe democracy is a good thing, then there are over a billion people that voted peacefully just now. How about a security council seat for India that is a 6th of humanity?
How about partnering with India in fixing up Pakistan and Afghanistan? America had always dared to take bold steps throughout history when compelled with moral problems. Let us get it done!
— Veetri, Phoenix, AZ
Recommend Recommended by 25 Readers
21.
May 19, 2009 7:12 am
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India's reelection of the government of Manmohan Singh, one of the world's most capable and prudent heads of government, is heartening. The fact that he is only the second Indian leader since independence to be reelected after serving a full term suggests that India may indeed be entering a phase of stable growth. That should appeal to those investing in the subcontinent’s future, and comfort those, like the United States, who are increasingly reliant on it as an ally. Additionally, the success of this exercise in democracy at such a large scale also resonates in countries like China, who have resolutely contended that such a system cannot work in nations of such complexity and scope.
To continue the discussion, please visit www.twitter.com/halwoods
— Hal Woods, Chicago, IL
Recommend Recommended by 18 Readers
22.
May 19, 2009 7:12 am
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It is past time the US understood its predicament in Pakistan. You can neither stop nor continue feeding the beast that controls Pakistan - its army. The former risks implosion of the country and the latter explosions worldwide. Sorry, India cannot help you out of this mess. You cannot lay the blame for Pakistan buying nukes out of US aid for development or fighting terrorism on India. Pakistan does not need more nukes to avoid the threat of India. Pakistani army needs them to scare the US into parting with its money, which will be used to perpetuate the feudal stranglehold over ordinary Pakistanis. Honestly, does anyone still believe that India seeks any of the extremist-ridden Pakistani territory?
Please learn not to mollycoddle dictatorships for short term gains next time you are revisiting policy. Tutorial one: Start with Saudi Arabia which I heard builds most Madrassas in Pakistan.
— SK, NY
Recommend Recommended by 28 Readers
23.
May 19, 2009 8:54 am
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Expecting India to play a role in stabilizing Pakistan in any manner, let alone through progress on Kashmir seems rather naive! Progress towards any solution on Kashmir is likely to cause serious internal problems for even a stable government in Pakistan, let alone the current lame-duck administration of Mr. Zardari. It's also important to understand that with most of India's neighbors, anti-India rhetoric and posturing is de rigeur for everybody in the political process - and more so in the case of Pakistan. Any attempt by India to get involved in "stabilizing" Pakistan would probably prove counter productive.
On a related note, the US Administration and policy wonks need to get real about the fundamental nature of the Pakistani State. 60 years of an Islamist foundational doctrine, virulent anti-Indianism, and 30 years of (american-sponsored) jihadism have given these ideologies deep roots in every facet of the state, and the transition that is being expected of them today requires that these very roots be torn from the ground.
The recent confrontation with the Taliban in Swat constitutes the first credible signal from the State of its willingness to transform itself and the US needs to hold the Pak Govt to this course.
The Indian Govt would be happy to move on Kashmir (as back channel negotiations on the subject with Musharraf were testament to), but the Pakistanis must necessarily abnegate recourse to terrorist proxies as instruments of state policy, and extradite known terrorist offenders currently claiming sanctuary there under the patronage of the intelligence services, before any Indian govt could reasonably reengage in a dialogue.
— Sreeram, Bangalore
Recommend Recommended by 3 Readers
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May 19, 2009 8:54 am
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This article shows naivete in discussing the region.
1. "Demand assurances" from pakistan? Who from, precisely? The President, who controls nothing? Or the Army, which took $10 Billion in the past to further their own interests? "Assurances" from any Pakistani institution means nothing.
2. "Persuade" Burma's regime? Are you aware that China and India are in competition for influence there, and that China is far ahead? That most of North Eastern Burma is full of chinese, and chinese currency is freely used there? India's interest in Burma are based on realpolitik vs China not on what the rest of the world wants vis a vis democracy etc.
— jetlagged, Northern Virginia
Recommend Recommended by 8 Readers
25.
May 19, 2009 8:54 am
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Oh dear. This editorial needs a translator well-versed in imperialese. I'll give some of it a go.
"[A]rguably the most dangerous country on earth" means "Oops, we gave billions to a country to help it oppress its own people, and now this seems to no longer work it turns out they also spent much of it on nukes instead of bombing villages. Whatever shall we do? Note: get out of other peoples' business is not a valid answer."
"Resolving issues over Kashmir" means "India and Pakistan should get their act together - but whatever you do, don't take the wishes of the people of Kashmir into account. That would set a bad precedent."
"India must assume its responsibilities" means "We need a local policeman for the Empire. India has just been volunteered."
— Christian Haesemeyer, Los Angeles
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May 19, 2009 8:54 am
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India should not deal with a state which has shown little regard to its citizen's basic rights to education and social empowerment. Washington's advice on engaging the leader of Pakistan should be voiced to the country which remains its strongest ally both economically and in terms of providing military hardware - China.
— Nitin, Wellington
Recommend Recommended by 2 Readers
27.
May 19, 2009 8:54 am
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Kashmir problem will be solved in no time if the US stops giving military aid to Pakistan. Pakistani governments of both civilian and military varieties are experts in fooling US into thinking that Pakistan is a US ally in whatever the US wants to accomplish in the region - a base fro US operations against USSR, a conduit for arms to fight Soviets or holding the line against Al Queda. Whatever the US policy, the army ends up with more weapons and gets enriched and to maintain it's position the army tells the Pakistani population that India is the enemy.
— Lordknow, Palo Alo, CA
Recommend Recommended by 2 Readers
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May 19, 2009 8:54 am
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The editorial indeed makes some valid points about India’s rightful regional role, yet it overlooks a major barrier. And that is the Pakistan’s army and ISI who benefits immensely by having India as a perpetual enemy. Their constant, and often unjustified, blackmail of the Pakistan’s populace by creating the specter of India’s unbridled aggression gives them justification for fleecing the Pakistan’s national budget. Thus any overtures by India, except for delivering the Kashmir on a silver plater, will not placate the two institutions that have held their own country, and now the world, hostage. And even after such an overture, given their record there is no guarantee that the Pakistan army and ISI will not find any reason not to continue the enmity. In fact, it may embolden these two institutions, just as making concessions to Taliban in Swat valley gave the Taliban encouragement to reach for more. Moreover, for the last 20 years, the Pakistan army and ISI have come to believe that the western nations and the US need the Pakistan army badly enough to let them extract their pound of flesh and still get away with much more. Amassing nuclear weapons while receiving billions of dollars from the US to allegedly fight a war on terror is an excellent example Pakistan army’s strategy. Twisting India’s arms to make concessions is no guarantee that the game that is being played for the last 20 years will change. Negotiating arms treaty to include China is a good suggestions but it should be separated from the India’s relations with Pakistan which should be strictly a bilateral issues. Mixing the two, although they are somewhat interrelated, is not advisable. Suggestion on broader talks on environment and water with Pakistan is indeed a good one since it directly helps the people of Pakistan, and an issue that India should take seriously.
— PK, Sacremento, CA
Recommend Recommended by 3 Readers
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May 19, 2009 8:54 am
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It is preposterous to suggest that India should initiate arms control when Pakistan is bulking up on fighter jets and nukes, ostensibly to fight the Taliban. The government should first get down to the task of taking care of the development of the country, driving growth and combating terrorism (both within and Pakistan sponsored)
— Jeejo, Bangalore
Recommend Recommended by 3 Readers
30.
May 19, 2009 8:54 am
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the indian congress's victory should enhance india's image in the world besides bringing stability to indian government for the next five years. most election observers expected a fragile coalition to emerge from the election. the thumping victory for prime minister manmohan singh has given him a second term, an event that has only occured once before in india's post-colonial history when jawaharlal nehru was re-elected.manmohan singh's government has promoted programs for the low income sections of indian society.the manmohan singh led congress government has actively tried to improve relations with the united states. although the new york times opposed the us-india nuclear deal, it was important for india to sign the deal and maintain it's credibility with the bush administration. to manmohan singh's credit, he was firm and determined and saw the deal through,even though his communist allies withdrew their support and his government almost collapsed. he is also viewed as a person of integrity.india's growth has slowed due to the global economic downturn.manmohan singh's past background and experience as an economist should serve india well.
india's voters ignored the talibanization in neighboring pakistan, and communal and divisive politics in electing a party that defends the country's secular values.
india is one of the top troop contributers to UN peacekeeping operations. kashmir's accession to india in '47 was legal and it's constitution is closely aligned with india's after the last 60 years.unlike pakistan which is an islamic country, indias people view themselves as a secular society and kashmir,a state that has both hindus and muslims, as an integral part of their country. india is one of the largest troop contributers to un peacekeepingg efforts and has partnered with the us in the efforts to rebuild afghanistan.
india faces daunting challenges including a large budget deficit and a need to modernize it's infrastructure.
the indian congress's win has increased hopes that economic reform will continue in india.it's communist allies opposed these reformsin recent years.however, india will have to proceed cautiously in opening it's market in view of the global downturn.
pakistan's nuclear and arms build up,and the mumbai attack last november are reminders of india's external challenges.
— amber, us
Recommend Recommended by 2 Readers
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May 19, 2009 8:54 am
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It is true that India has to assume greater role in Asian Subcontinent. But when it comes to Pakistan, we can not ignore the fact that Kashmir is not THE main problem, as it was impressed in the Editorial. Rather securing Pakistani state from Taliban and Separatists is the main issue. When it is not clear who exercises what influence in which part of the total Pakistani set-up (Government, Legislature, Armed forces, Judiciary and Media)with whom should India engage regarding Kashmir? What assurances can be given from the negotiating party that the rest of the stake holders agree? Please, let us all give Pakistani state time to set house in-order and then bring upon them additional burdens.
One at a time - Brick by Brick, a long lasting solution.
— Srikumar, Mumbai
Recommend Recommended by 3 Readers
32.
May 19, 2009 8:54 am
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The tone of the editorial is rather condescending. As the saying goes, for a person with a hammer the whole world seems like a nail. Not a single line in this editorial is really about India but more about protecting American's interests and ambitions - for example "...use its considerable trade clout with Iran, Sudan and Myanmar to curb Tehran’s nuclear program, end the genocide in Darfur and press Myanmar’s junta to expand human rights". Can you please add preparing a venti tazo chai-latte with soy milk for President Obama to the list?
I am not here to suggest that none of this is important but please we have enough problems on our own. We are not sure how the recession would play out in India, what to do with farmer suicides, how to have an inclusive growth, what to do with the Maoist problem and growing terrorist strikes and ways to protect the secular fabric of our nation. The people of India voted on these issues more than anything and I am really glad that the people of India gave an almost decisive mandate for a sincere and hardworking man in Dr. Manmohan Singh. India should engage with the world on its terms and conditions and when it chooses and not at the bidding of anyone.
— KM, India
Recommend Recommended by 13 Readers
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May 19, 2009 8:54 am
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'India's challenges' reads a lot like 'What the US would like India to do'. How about the real challenges: economic reform and lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty, the environment and securing natural resources for future growth? Yes, Pakistan is important, but India seems to have limited ability to affect outcomes in its disintegrating neighbour.
— shaloub, Toronto
Recommend Recommended by 10 Readers
34.
May 19, 2009 9:00 am
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Well, I suppose Manmohan Singh and the South Block mandarins in New Delhi should profusely thank the NYT editorial for their generous sermon. What better way could one celebrate the successful conclusion of the largest democratic exercise in human history that led to significant upsets (e.g., the routing of the Communists in Bengal).
Note the number of times "should" and "must" are used. Such patronizing editorials, unfortunately, confirm that the reputation of the arrogant American is often well-earned.
Such a patronizing laundry list of action items would be laughable but is instead disturbing coming from a prestigious newspaper. Do we Americans have a better grasp of what's good for India than the Indians themselves?
It's interesting that NYT now considers Pakistani to be "arguably the most dangerous country on earth". India had made this point over a decade ago. Unfortunately, it took another 8 years after 9/11 for this thought to dawn to our mainstream media.
Let me offer an alternative view. There is absolutely no reason to believe that a stable Pakistan is in India's interest. A stable Pakistan is one ruled by the Army, with arms purchases funded by our taxpayer money, and planning and executing mischief against India.
The dismantling of the Pakistani nation state into smaller states is in the best interest of India in particular and for the stability of South Asia in general. I would assume that India would do her best to exercise influence in Afghanistan to ensure that Pakistani nuclear weapons would not be stationed there out of range of Indian Air Force (the "strategic depth" sought by the Pakistani Army). If the Indian administration has any strategy, it would be to assiduously work towards breaking up Pakistan.
I suppose it would take another decade for NYT to come to a similar conclusion that a feudal state devoid of a national identity cannot be propped up by foreign handouts and a common dislike of India.
Till then we will listen to the sermons over morning coffee :)
— Ajit, Sunnyvale, CA
Recommend Recommended by 11 Readers
35.
May 19, 2009 9:00 am
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and Srilanka...India in spite of fatal losses (e.g., Rajiv Gandhi) has failed to address Tamils concern in Sri Lanka for over 25 yrs now. Its initiative for peace keeping forces and to aid Sril Lankan military would not have been necessary had India has supported the cause of Tamils in Srilanka. In these post-mortem efforts, Indian government stance has also earned the wrath of its own people (in TamilNadu).
— Balaji Raman, Singapore
All Editors' Selections » EDITORS' SELECTIONS (what's this?)
May 19, 2009 7:03 am
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Several comments regarding your editorial on what India should do in regards to Pakistan. You are right, India showed remarkable restraint in not attacking Pakistan after the Mumbai attack. Especially since the Indian government believes that elements of the Pakistani army/intelligence were involved. In addition, your paper reported sources in the US intelligence organization that Pakistan's ISI was involved in the attack on the Indian embassy in Kabul that killed two senior Indian officials.
Even if US aid is not used directly to build Pakistani nukes, money is fungible, and the resources freed up by the aid will be used by the Pakistani's to build nukes.
So to ask India to unilaterally stop developing additional nuclear material and to go into arms control talks with Pakistan and China is unrealistic. Do you really think that China wants to have arms control discussions? China is a major security concern for India and the US. India's military calculus is more centered on China than Pakistan. Your proposal is a non-starter.
As far as Kashmir is concerned, India would have agreed to converting the current Line of Control as the International border. That is the only pragmatic solution. There are several precedents to this. Bengal was divided between India and East Pakistan. Punjab was divided between India and West Pakistan and Pashtunistan was divided by the Durand line. Pakistani leaders have come close to accepting such a deal in the past but unfortunately have been overtaken by events in their own country before consummating the deal.
The reason that there is a strong presence of the Indian army near the Pakistani border is to prevent infiltration by terrorists from Pakistan. Often under cover fire from the Pakistani army. Every week there are reports in the Indian press of pitched battles as the Indian forces try and stop the terrorists from entering India. Do you really think that any Indian government can order its military to withdraw from the border while terrorists are entering on a regular basis.
The only way the US Af-Pak strategy will work is if the ruling elite in Pakistan (i.e. the Army ) finally realize that it is not in their best interests to keep India as the bogeyman. Until now, the demonizing of India has allowed the Pakistani army to control Pakistan. Like some one correctly said, Most countries have an army while in Pakistan the army has a country. That calculus will have to change for the Pakistani elite. India getting stronger v.vs. Pakistan will help that cause not the other way around as your editorial suggests.
— Sanjiv, San Jose, CA
Recommend Recommended by 43 Readers
2.
All Editors' Selections » EDITORS' SELECTIONS (what's this?)
May 19, 2009 7:09 am
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It is commendable to exhort India to show regional leadership because of the stable mandate. However - Pakistan's nuclear activities have little correlation to whether India shows leadership or not. Just because its a next door neighbor does not make India a big brother to Pakistan. Pakistan's big brother has always been the United States - and her nuclear activities and stability are directly correlated to US policies and funding. In fact, many of the suggestions made in this editorial have already been pursued ad nauseum by India with different Pakistani regimes - yielding very limited results. Kashmir has had democratically elected government for quite a while now. Asking India to "resolve" the Kashmir issue without specifying what the resolution is expected in this editorial makes it a very weak argument. India has lots of other challenges besides Pakistan that could have been addressed in this editorial. Trust me - Pakistan's nuclear activities were hardly in the Indian voter's mind when they were selecting one party over another.
Both the title and contents of this editorial are misleading. But I agree that the concern is genuine.
If there's a key to changing things in Pakistan one way or the other, it lies with the United States - and that mandate was given not last week - but on November 4th, 2008. I hope we see a game changer there.
— Susmit, PA
Recommend Recommended by 30 Readers
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May 19, 2009 7:12 am
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You are not making any practical sense when you come up with these kinds of editorials. India has two main challenges..reducing poverty and keeping itself safe from the insanity around it. Arms control talks with Pakistan and China? Where's the US in all of this? India has to make Pakistan happy over Kashmir so Pakistan can do the US bidding? Stop unilaterally refining nuclear fuel when its surrounded by China and Pakistan, two of the worlds biggest proliferators?
Come one guys. Get a modicum of common sense before you come up with this kind of stuff. Its laughable.
— gr, Glenview, Il
Recommend Recommended by 44 Readers
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May 19, 2009 7:12 am
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History is testament to the fact that the United States has been on the wrong, short-sighted, self-serving path when it comes to the subcontinent. As a result, Pakistan is now a pathethic caricature of a client state. Its leaders have been reduced to barricading themselves from the extremists in their palaces whilst at home and shamelessly begging for unaccounted aid when abroad. India has taken a different path and must continue on it. Relationship with the United States is important but comes at a great cost. India must do what is in its own best interests, develop its own foreign relationships and defend its own self interests. It can not, and must not, reduce itself to being a pawn on a global chessboard as its neighbor has.
— Nuz2Me, Utah
Recommend Recommended by 26 Readers
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May 19, 2009 7:12 am
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Does India really need advice from the editors at the New York Times ? For that matter, do they need advice from anyone in the west?
From what I read, Indians still believe in hard work, free markets and capitalism. Maybe we should be taking advice from them.
— m. jones, nm
Recommend Recommended by 28 Readers
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May 19, 2009 7:12 am
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You guys mess up with every one and others have to take responsibility. You should probably stop being selfish and develop a human heart.
— Suresh, India
Recommend Recommended by 13 Readers
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May 19, 2009 7:12 am
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As long as this idea is being shoved down Pakistan's throat that India is the dominant power and Pakistan needs to submit to their leadership in the region, nothing can be resolved.
You talk about India's "constructive" role in Afghanistan. For Pakistan it is very suspicious why India being a country with no cultural or geographic affinity with Afghanistan is being allowed to have a dominant role there. On the other hand Pakistan which has a 2200 km long border with that country and a significant population which has cultural affinity with Afghanistan is being used with no regard to its own strategic interests.
I think the idea is very clear here. Pakistan is being encircled to fall in line with India's regional leadership role with the ultimate objective of countering China. The problem with the plan is that Pakistan is getting nothing in return and it is being left to India's goodwill to solve all mutual disputes. This kind of plan can easily backfire because although Pakistan is smaller than India, it is not insignificant.
I think it would behove the US to try and deal with Pakistan seperately from India in a way that takes into account Pakistan's interests also. That is the only way of dealing with this situation in fair manner.
— SAM, CA
Recommend Recommended by 3 Readers
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May 19, 2009 7:12 am
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How can you deal with a state based on religion which preaches hatred of other religions? Until Pakistan gives up it's religious bigotry, accepts both pluralism and democracy, there is no hope for Pakistan. India might as well ask "Am I brother's keeper?"
— V.R.Anil Kumar, Mysore, India
Recommend Recommended by 23 Readers
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May 19, 2009 7:12 am
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Pakistan is only sane to fear India. With India greatly expanding its conventional as well as nuclear capabilities, build more nuclear bombs is the only way Pakistan can balance India off. In terms of military buildup, there is no significant difference between India and Pakistan. Both are very poor countries in terms of living standard of their people, but both are spending disproportionally on arms. They created real fear and contempt toward each other, because they let pride get in the way and can not master pragmatism. India was colonized by the British for a long time, that damaged their self-confidence. India need a bold leader to turn their national psyche around, but sadly, we have not seen one in the past 50 years.
As for Pakistan, India and China to get together to negotiate arms control. This is just wishful thinking. The U.S. is directly and indirectly arming India as part of "League of Democracy" to contain China; China is arming Pakistan directly and indirectly as a way to squeeze India. Those relationship are deeply entangled. Without a grand bargain that also involve the shape of U.S.-China relations, south Asia will not see true tranquility in a long time to come.
— horsham, north carolina
Recommend Recommended by 5 Readers
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May 19, 2009 7:12 am
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Asking India to negotiate with Pakistan is like asking Israel to negotiate with Iran - we don't hear that from you a lot, do we? Did United States negotiate with Iraq or Al Queda? Pakistan's nukes have only one purpose - to destroy Hindu civilization when it goes down.
— TruthPrevails, Mumbai, India
Recommend Recommended by 30 Readers
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May 19, 2009 7:12 am
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It is a fantasy to think a parliamentary-elected govt. could take a leadership role. Each member of the parliament is loyal to its special interests and.or ethnic group. Parliament-elected govts. are weak. They are the whips that the U.S. and more stable dictatorships like Iran crack.
— Lee Walker, Oakland, CA
Recommend Recommended by 4 Readers
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May 19, 2009 7:12 am
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Yeah. Right. You keep pumping billions of dollars, and selling fighter jets to a crazed Muslim country with no history of democracy or even stability; that has nukes it cannot or barely control; cannot effectively control its own regions; whose army intelligence apparatus is autonomous of the government --
and then not just advocate India to show restraint -- which by the way it shows in ample measure, but to complain that it has not done enough?!!
What hutzpah!
— krish, SF Bay Area, CA
Recommend Recommended by 41 Readers
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May 19, 2009 7:12 am
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You are right - it is high time India solve the Kashmir issue by forcing Pakistan to vacate part of Kashmir it illegally grabbed in 1948. Pakistan can't control its own territory, how can it govern the land it illegally grabbed? India should take back its own country and do a better job than Pakistan.
Also to solve problem of terrorism, India should pull another Bangladesh on Pakistan. US has pampered and spoilt Pakistan for a long time and India had to bear the brunt of terrorism eminating from Pakistan. Even now US is following the same misguided policies. So let US wollow in its own ignorance and wishful thinking. By breaking Pakistan in four countries and spliting the army, the problem of terrorism will be solved once and for all.
— umok, WA
Recommend Recommended by 12 Readers
14.
May 19, 2009 7:12 am
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Article:"Trying to keep up to 100 bombs from extremists is hard enough"
Every reader should remember the there were thousands of nuclear bombs in the hands of extremists for eight years, starting January 20th, 2001. Recall all the talk about from that administration about "needing" to use nuclear bombs as bunker-busters in Iraq. We almost became the third nation to use nuclear weapons, as well as the first and second such nation.
— Ken Belcher, Chicago
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15.
May 19, 2009 7:12 am
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I agree. India must tell Pakistan that it has no intention to conquer or de-stabilize Pakistan. As widely felt in India, a vibrant and secular Pakistan is good for India as well. As an ordinary Indian citizen, I would want Pakistan to prosper on all fronts and develop tolerance for people of other faiths. If it happens, India will be at peace as well. With China, India competes in economic activity. It should not have any aspiration to counter China militarily. Because if it does, it would drain its already scarce resources which it should deploy in development and welfare of its people.
India must sign NPT. One nuclear bomb or 100 would not give security enough to any nation. In a nuclear war nobody wins. She should not support any nation that has nuclear ambitions and if possible destroy all its nuclear weapons. Even if Pakistan nukes India, nuking Pakistan will be act of revenge and destruction of common man, and what would we have achieved in the end?I am not saying do not protect yourself. But nuclear weapons are no means to achieve security. Besides, there won't be any invasion at nation's level anymore. All wars currently are low intensity conflicts. So we don't need nuclear weapons.
Kashmir can be made independent if Kashmiris of all faiths are part of it and want independence. Just Muslims and not Pandits desiring so, would not enable any peace process to reach its end. Pakistan should also ask for an inclusive Kashmir that has Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus unlike herself, where ethnic cleansing has been going on for the past 60 years.
Finally, India should control its extreme right. We were always a peace loving and a spiritual nation. Let us retain that image and move towards economic prosperity.
— dram48, Bangalore, India
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16.
May 19, 2009 7:12 am
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This is Washington's prescription for India for Washington's own good. This is the line which Obama administration would expect India to toe. Whether these policy reccomendations are in India's interests needs to be debated. Washington has been seen as a Pakistani crony in India and the perception there is that Washington has ignored all of Pakistan's past sins, co-habited with China and spawned regional terrorism. The very fact that Washington has been unable to curb Pakistan's nuclear programme is reason enough to believe that the Obama administration is failing to use its leverage in Pakistan and Afghanistan. America cannot afford an indifferent India which is also assidously being courted by the Chinese too. Ignoring India may just mean that the powershift to China may happen a lot sooner.
— James Baker, Toronto, Canada
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17.
May 19, 2009 7:12 am
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Maybe the US should lead the way by cutting off billions of dollars of its own taxpayers dollars sent as aid to Pakistan that is ultimately used to fund terrorist training camps and purchase nuclear weapons. An American professor I know still finds the ignorance of US representatives in Pakistan about the perils of giving billions of dollars to any hand that is stretched out, unbelievable. He was called in by the USAID head in Islamabad to give a briefing about what to do with the cash pile that organization was sitting on. She had no idea what was going on in the country and was giving away funds to anyone who approached her. Maybe you should send people who have some knowledge about the ground realities there.
— Skasster, India
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18.
May 19, 2009 7:12 am
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The possibility of good India-Pakistan relationship is far from being practical! Past experiences have shown that Pakistan government (or to be precise, Pakistani military!) can't be trusted! It is just that they thrive on propagating a sense of hatred towards their secular neighbour.So the government in India can do absolutely nothing about it!( But they won't admit it!!)
— ranjan, india
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19.
May 19, 2009 7:12 am
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While the spirit of the article is acceptable, the tone leaves a lot desired. Pakistan gets billions of dollars in military aid while India gets sermons. What kind of logic is this?
Yes Pakistani citizens and civil society is suffering and that has to change. Also India and Pakistan can live together with harmony as there are many concerns that are common to both countries. Pakistan has a huge responsibility in making this happen. How come the economy of Pakistan is in doldrums yet they find resources to expand their nuclear arsenal and for what purpose? In the name of assisting Pakistan in fighting Taliban, looks like US creating another Frankenstein's monster in South Asia. US should not absolve itself of its moral responsibility in the damage it is causing by continuously pouring money into Pakistan without demanding and ensuring accountability.
Looks like even Obama is also gradually subscribing to the myopic approach that US embraced for the last four decades vis-a-vis India and Pakistan. India needs no sympathy from US. It needs US to be fair and firm in its dealings with Pakistan and India. Looks like this is not going to happen
— Vish, UK
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20.
May 19, 2009 7:12 am
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There is nothing India can do in Pakistan. They are a lot that grew up on poison fed daily that "Hindu" India is going to get them eventhough is Pakistan that started three wars. Pakistan can only validate its existence by proving that a multicultural multireligious India is not feasible. And there are its partners..us and China pumping billions and arming them to the teeth despite knowing that they help Al Qaeda and Taliban will be nourished.
Funny reading this editorial-- our government is contemplating billions more aid, and at the same time asking that India refrain! Why? So that the "freedom fighters" won't send another plane to New York? Are Indian lives cheap?
Throughout history, we seem to have sided with despots and dictators. When will we change? If you believe democracy is a good thing, then there are over a billion people that voted peacefully just now. How about a security council seat for India that is a 6th of humanity?
How about partnering with India in fixing up Pakistan and Afghanistan? America had always dared to take bold steps throughout history when compelled with moral problems. Let us get it done!
— Veetri, Phoenix, AZ
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21.
May 19, 2009 7:12 am
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India's reelection of the government of Manmohan Singh, one of the world's most capable and prudent heads of government, is heartening. The fact that he is only the second Indian leader since independence to be reelected after serving a full term suggests that India may indeed be entering a phase of stable growth. That should appeal to those investing in the subcontinent’s future, and comfort those, like the United States, who are increasingly reliant on it as an ally. Additionally, the success of this exercise in democracy at such a large scale also resonates in countries like China, who have resolutely contended that such a system cannot work in nations of such complexity and scope.
To continue the discussion, please visit www.twitter.com/halwoods
— Hal Woods, Chicago, IL
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22.
May 19, 2009 7:12 am
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It is past time the US understood its predicament in Pakistan. You can neither stop nor continue feeding the beast that controls Pakistan - its army. The former risks implosion of the country and the latter explosions worldwide. Sorry, India cannot help you out of this mess. You cannot lay the blame for Pakistan buying nukes out of US aid for development or fighting terrorism on India. Pakistan does not need more nukes to avoid the threat of India. Pakistani army needs them to scare the US into parting with its money, which will be used to perpetuate the feudal stranglehold over ordinary Pakistanis. Honestly, does anyone still believe that India seeks any of the extremist-ridden Pakistani territory?
Please learn not to mollycoddle dictatorships for short term gains next time you are revisiting policy. Tutorial one: Start with Saudi Arabia which I heard builds most Madrassas in Pakistan.
— SK, NY
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23.
May 19, 2009 8:54 am
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Expecting India to play a role in stabilizing Pakistan in any manner, let alone through progress on Kashmir seems rather naive! Progress towards any solution on Kashmir is likely to cause serious internal problems for even a stable government in Pakistan, let alone the current lame-duck administration of Mr. Zardari. It's also important to understand that with most of India's neighbors, anti-India rhetoric and posturing is de rigeur for everybody in the political process - and more so in the case of Pakistan. Any attempt by India to get involved in "stabilizing" Pakistan would probably prove counter productive.
On a related note, the US Administration and policy wonks need to get real about the fundamental nature of the Pakistani State. 60 years of an Islamist foundational doctrine, virulent anti-Indianism, and 30 years of (american-sponsored) jihadism have given these ideologies deep roots in every facet of the state, and the transition that is being expected of them today requires that these very roots be torn from the ground.
The recent confrontation with the Taliban in Swat constitutes the first credible signal from the State of its willingness to transform itself and the US needs to hold the Pak Govt to this course.
The Indian Govt would be happy to move on Kashmir (as back channel negotiations on the subject with Musharraf were testament to), but the Pakistanis must necessarily abnegate recourse to terrorist proxies as instruments of state policy, and extradite known terrorist offenders currently claiming sanctuary there under the patronage of the intelligence services, before any Indian govt could reasonably reengage in a dialogue.
— Sreeram, Bangalore
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24.
May 19, 2009 8:54 am
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This article shows naivete in discussing the region.
1. "Demand assurances" from pakistan? Who from, precisely? The President, who controls nothing? Or the Army, which took $10 Billion in the past to further their own interests? "Assurances" from any Pakistani institution means nothing.
2. "Persuade" Burma's regime? Are you aware that China and India are in competition for influence there, and that China is far ahead? That most of North Eastern Burma is full of chinese, and chinese currency is freely used there? India's interest in Burma are based on realpolitik vs China not on what the rest of the world wants vis a vis democracy etc.
— jetlagged, Northern Virginia
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25.
May 19, 2009 8:54 am
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Oh dear. This editorial needs a translator well-versed in imperialese. I'll give some of it a go.
"[A]rguably the most dangerous country on earth" means "Oops, we gave billions to a country to help it oppress its own people, and now this seems to no longer work it turns out they also spent much of it on nukes instead of bombing villages. Whatever shall we do? Note: get out of other peoples' business is not a valid answer."
"Resolving issues over Kashmir" means "India and Pakistan should get their act together - but whatever you do, don't take the wishes of the people of Kashmir into account. That would set a bad precedent."
"India must assume its responsibilities" means "We need a local policeman for the Empire. India has just been volunteered."
— Christian Haesemeyer, Los Angeles
26.
May 19, 2009 8:54 am
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India should not deal with a state which has shown little regard to its citizen's basic rights to education and social empowerment. Washington's advice on engaging the leader of Pakistan should be voiced to the country which remains its strongest ally both economically and in terms of providing military hardware - China.
— Nitin, Wellington
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27.
May 19, 2009 8:54 am
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Kashmir problem will be solved in no time if the US stops giving military aid to Pakistan. Pakistani governments of both civilian and military varieties are experts in fooling US into thinking that Pakistan is a US ally in whatever the US wants to accomplish in the region - a base fro US operations against USSR, a conduit for arms to fight Soviets or holding the line against Al Queda. Whatever the US policy, the army ends up with more weapons and gets enriched and to maintain it's position the army tells the Pakistani population that India is the enemy.
— Lordknow, Palo Alo, CA
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28.
May 19, 2009 8:54 am
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The editorial indeed makes some valid points about India’s rightful regional role, yet it overlooks a major barrier. And that is the Pakistan’s army and ISI who benefits immensely by having India as a perpetual enemy. Their constant, and often unjustified, blackmail of the Pakistan’s populace by creating the specter of India’s unbridled aggression gives them justification for fleecing the Pakistan’s national budget. Thus any overtures by India, except for delivering the Kashmir on a silver plater, will not placate the two institutions that have held their own country, and now the world, hostage. And even after such an overture, given their record there is no guarantee that the Pakistan army and ISI will not find any reason not to continue the enmity. In fact, it may embolden these two institutions, just as making concessions to Taliban in Swat valley gave the Taliban encouragement to reach for more. Moreover, for the last 20 years, the Pakistan army and ISI have come to believe that the western nations and the US need the Pakistan army badly enough to let them extract their pound of flesh and still get away with much more. Amassing nuclear weapons while receiving billions of dollars from the US to allegedly fight a war on terror is an excellent example Pakistan army’s strategy. Twisting India’s arms to make concessions is no guarantee that the game that is being played for the last 20 years will change. Negotiating arms treaty to include China is a good suggestions but it should be separated from the India’s relations with Pakistan which should be strictly a bilateral issues. Mixing the two, although they are somewhat interrelated, is not advisable. Suggestion on broader talks on environment and water with Pakistan is indeed a good one since it directly helps the people of Pakistan, and an issue that India should take seriously.
— PK, Sacremento, CA
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29.
May 19, 2009 8:54 am
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It is preposterous to suggest that India should initiate arms control when Pakistan is bulking up on fighter jets and nukes, ostensibly to fight the Taliban. The government should first get down to the task of taking care of the development of the country, driving growth and combating terrorism (both within and Pakistan sponsored)
— Jeejo, Bangalore
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30.
May 19, 2009 8:54 am
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the indian congress's victory should enhance india's image in the world besides bringing stability to indian government for the next five years. most election observers expected a fragile coalition to emerge from the election. the thumping victory for prime minister manmohan singh has given him a second term, an event that has only occured once before in india's post-colonial history when jawaharlal nehru was re-elected.manmohan singh's government has promoted programs for the low income sections of indian society.the manmohan singh led congress government has actively tried to improve relations with the united states. although the new york times opposed the us-india nuclear deal, it was important for india to sign the deal and maintain it's credibility with the bush administration. to manmohan singh's credit, he was firm and determined and saw the deal through,even though his communist allies withdrew their support and his government almost collapsed. he is also viewed as a person of integrity.india's growth has slowed due to the global economic downturn.manmohan singh's past background and experience as an economist should serve india well.
india's voters ignored the talibanization in neighboring pakistan, and communal and divisive politics in electing a party that defends the country's secular values.
india is one of the top troop contributers to UN peacekeeping operations. kashmir's accession to india in '47 was legal and it's constitution is closely aligned with india's after the last 60 years.unlike pakistan which is an islamic country, indias people view themselves as a secular society and kashmir,a state that has both hindus and muslims, as an integral part of their country. india is one of the largest troop contributers to un peacekeepingg efforts and has partnered with the us in the efforts to rebuild afghanistan.
india faces daunting challenges including a large budget deficit and a need to modernize it's infrastructure.
the indian congress's win has increased hopes that economic reform will continue in india.it's communist allies opposed these reformsin recent years.however, india will have to proceed cautiously in opening it's market in view of the global downturn.
pakistan's nuclear and arms build up,and the mumbai attack last november are reminders of india's external challenges.
— amber, us
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31.
May 19, 2009 8:54 am
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It is true that India has to assume greater role in Asian Subcontinent. But when it comes to Pakistan, we can not ignore the fact that Kashmir is not THE main problem, as it was impressed in the Editorial. Rather securing Pakistani state from Taliban and Separatists is the main issue. When it is not clear who exercises what influence in which part of the total Pakistani set-up (Government, Legislature, Armed forces, Judiciary and Media)with whom should India engage regarding Kashmir? What assurances can be given from the negotiating party that the rest of the stake holders agree? Please, let us all give Pakistani state time to set house in-order and then bring upon them additional burdens.
One at a time - Brick by Brick, a long lasting solution.
— Srikumar, Mumbai
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32.
May 19, 2009 8:54 am
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The tone of the editorial is rather condescending. As the saying goes, for a person with a hammer the whole world seems like a nail. Not a single line in this editorial is really about India but more about protecting American's interests and ambitions - for example "...use its considerable trade clout with Iran, Sudan and Myanmar to curb Tehran’s nuclear program, end the genocide in Darfur and press Myanmar’s junta to expand human rights". Can you please add preparing a venti tazo chai-latte with soy milk for President Obama to the list?
I am not here to suggest that none of this is important but please we have enough problems on our own. We are not sure how the recession would play out in India, what to do with farmer suicides, how to have an inclusive growth, what to do with the Maoist problem and growing terrorist strikes and ways to protect the secular fabric of our nation. The people of India voted on these issues more than anything and I am really glad that the people of India gave an almost decisive mandate for a sincere and hardworking man in Dr. Manmohan Singh. India should engage with the world on its terms and conditions and when it chooses and not at the bidding of anyone.
— KM, India
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33.
May 19, 2009 8:54 am
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'India's challenges' reads a lot like 'What the US would like India to do'. How about the real challenges: economic reform and lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty, the environment and securing natural resources for future growth? Yes, Pakistan is important, but India seems to have limited ability to affect outcomes in its disintegrating neighbour.
— shaloub, Toronto
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34.
May 19, 2009 9:00 am
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Well, I suppose Manmohan Singh and the South Block mandarins in New Delhi should profusely thank the NYT editorial for their generous sermon. What better way could one celebrate the successful conclusion of the largest democratic exercise in human history that led to significant upsets (e.g., the routing of the Communists in Bengal).
Note the number of times "should" and "must" are used. Such patronizing editorials, unfortunately, confirm that the reputation of the arrogant American is often well-earned.
Such a patronizing laundry list of action items would be laughable but is instead disturbing coming from a prestigious newspaper. Do we Americans have a better grasp of what's good for India than the Indians themselves?
It's interesting that NYT now considers Pakistani to be "arguably the most dangerous country on earth". India had made this point over a decade ago. Unfortunately, it took another 8 years after 9/11 for this thought to dawn to our mainstream media.
Let me offer an alternative view. There is absolutely no reason to believe that a stable Pakistan is in India's interest. A stable Pakistan is one ruled by the Army, with arms purchases funded by our taxpayer money, and planning and executing mischief against India.
The dismantling of the Pakistani nation state into smaller states is in the best interest of India in particular and for the stability of South Asia in general. I would assume that India would do her best to exercise influence in Afghanistan to ensure that Pakistani nuclear weapons would not be stationed there out of range of Indian Air Force (the "strategic depth" sought by the Pakistani Army). If the Indian administration has any strategy, it would be to assiduously work towards breaking up Pakistan.
I suppose it would take another decade for NYT to come to a similar conclusion that a feudal state devoid of a national identity cannot be propped up by foreign handouts and a common dislike of India.
Till then we will listen to the sermons over morning coffee :)
— Ajit, Sunnyvale, CA
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35.
May 19, 2009 9:00 am
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and Srilanka...India in spite of fatal losses (e.g., Rajiv Gandhi) has failed to address Tamils concern in Sri Lanka for over 25 yrs now. Its initiative for peace keeping forces and to aid Sril Lankan military would not have been necessary had India has supported the cause of Tamils in Srilanka. In these post-mortem efforts, Indian government stance has also earned the wrath of its own people (in TamilNadu).
— Balaji Raman, Singapore
Editorial in New York Times : India’s Challenges, Also Readers' Comments
Published: May 18, 2009
The Indian National Congress party cannot afford a prolonged celebration after its overwhelming election victory. Much of the postvote analysis has focused on the daunting domestic agenda. But now that Congress has a stable mandate — and can shuck a fractious coalition — it is time for India to exercise the kind of regional and global leadership expected of a rising power.
It can start with neighboring Pakistan, arguably the most dangerous country on earth. A report in The Times on Monday reminds us just how dangerous: The United States believes Islamabad is rapidly expanding a nuclear arsenal thought to already contain 80 to 100 weapons.
We have consistently supported appropriate military aid and increased economic aid to help Pakistan fight the Taliban and Al Qaeda, strengthen democratic institutions and improve the life of its people. Squandering precious resources on nuclear bombs is disgraceful when Pakistan is troubled by economic crisis and facing an insurgency that threatens its very existence.
Trying to keep up to 100 bombs from extremists is hard enough; expanding the nuclear stockpile makes the challenge worse. Officials in Washington are legitimately asking whether billions of dollars in proposed new assistance might be diverted to Pakistan’s nuclear program. They should demand assurances it will not be.
India is essential to what Pakistan will do. New Delhi exercised welcome restraint when it did not attack Pakistan after the November 2008 attacks in Mumbai by Pakistani-based extremists. But tensions remain high, and the Pakistani Army continues to view India as its main adversary. India should take the lead in initiating arms control talks with Pakistan and China. It should also declare its intention to stop producing nuclear weapons fuel, even before a proposed multinational treaty is negotiated. That would provide leverage for Washington and others to exhort Pakistan to do the same.
It is past time for India — stronger both economically and in international stature — to find a way to resolve tensions with Pakistan over Kashmir. If that festering sore cannot be addressed directly, then — as Stephen P. Cohen, a South Asia expert at the Brookings Institution, suggests — broader regional talks on environmental and water issues might be an interim way to find common ground. Ignoring Kashmir is no longer an option.
India has played a constructive role in helping rebuild Afghanistan, but it must take steps to allay Islamabad’s concerns that this is a plan to encircle Pakistan. It should foster regional trade with Pakistan and Afghanistan. More broadly, India must help to revive world trade talks by opening its markets. It could use its considerable trade clout with Iran, Sudan and Myanmar to curb Tehran’s nuclear program, end the genocide in Darfur and press Myanmar’s junta to expand human rights.
India is the dominant power in South Asia, but it has been hesitant to assume its responsibilities. The Congress Party has to do better — starting with Pakistan.
The Indian National Congress party cannot afford a prolonged celebration after its overwhelming election victory. Much of the postvote analysis has focused on the daunting domestic agenda. But now that Congress has a stable mandate — and can shuck a fractious coalition — it is time for India to exercise the kind of regional and global leadership expected of a rising power.
It can start with neighboring Pakistan, arguably the most dangerous country on earth. A report in The Times on Monday reminds us just how dangerous: The United States believes Islamabad is rapidly expanding a nuclear arsenal thought to already contain 80 to 100 weapons.
We have consistently supported appropriate military aid and increased economic aid to help Pakistan fight the Taliban and Al Qaeda, strengthen democratic institutions and improve the life of its people. Squandering precious resources on nuclear bombs is disgraceful when Pakistan is troubled by economic crisis and facing an insurgency that threatens its very existence.
Trying to keep up to 100 bombs from extremists is hard enough; expanding the nuclear stockpile makes the challenge worse. Officials in Washington are legitimately asking whether billions of dollars in proposed new assistance might be diverted to Pakistan’s nuclear program. They should demand assurances it will not be.
India is essential to what Pakistan will do. New Delhi exercised welcome restraint when it did not attack Pakistan after the November 2008 attacks in Mumbai by Pakistani-based extremists. But tensions remain high, and the Pakistani Army continues to view India as its main adversary. India should take the lead in initiating arms control talks with Pakistan and China. It should also declare its intention to stop producing nuclear weapons fuel, even before a proposed multinational treaty is negotiated. That would provide leverage for Washington and others to exhort Pakistan to do the same.
It is past time for India — stronger both economically and in international stature — to find a way to resolve tensions with Pakistan over Kashmir. If that festering sore cannot be addressed directly, then — as Stephen P. Cohen, a South Asia expert at the Brookings Institution, suggests — broader regional talks on environmental and water issues might be an interim way to find common ground. Ignoring Kashmir is no longer an option.
India has played a constructive role in helping rebuild Afghanistan, but it must take steps to allay Islamabad’s concerns that this is a plan to encircle Pakistan. It should foster regional trade with Pakistan and Afghanistan. More broadly, India must help to revive world trade talks by opening its markets. It could use its considerable trade clout with Iran, Sudan and Myanmar to curb Tehran’s nuclear program, end the genocide in Darfur and press Myanmar’s junta to expand human rights.
India is the dominant power in South Asia, but it has been hesitant to assume its responsibilities. The Congress Party has to do better — starting with Pakistan.
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